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Old 11-03-2014, 10:08 AM
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Exclamation MAG UK wound down after losing employment tribunal

MAG UK wound down after losing employment tribunal

Read more: http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...#ixzz2veC83AUe
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:38 PM
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So, they not only abused their employees but robbed them of their compensation for wrongful dismissal as well. I won't be renewing my membership....
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:42 PM
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I think a lot of people will feel the same. MAG took a long time to recover when all this happened years ago, although we never really knew what it was all about and who did what. There's a lot more availability of information now so it will be harder to cover it up.
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:52 PM
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There are so many scandals these days that we hardly take any notice any more.

Anyone remember the pensions scandal where the Mirror group (I think) spent the workers pension fund, then shortly afterwards it came out that a lot of companies had done the same thing, some had gone into receivership or bankrupt and the pension funds had dissapeared..Well now there is a national campaign to get you to invest in a new pension fund because the employers invest in it too..nothing has changed, people are still gullible and will believe almost anything if someone says...Because it is the right thing to do...

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Old 11-03-2014, 05:13 PM
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Maybe Mitch can make a comment as to what is really happening rather than what a website journalist has written. I seem to remember the changing of company set up for MAG being planned (inc setting up new company) and voted on at the AGC last year way before a tribunal was even on the cards. Anyway I would suspect under TUPE rules they might be able to claim off the new company anyway or the government covers the award the same as redundancy pay from a wound up company if I remember rightly so the ex-employees would not lose out.
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:53 PM
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Anyway I would suspect under TUPE rules they might be able to claim off the new company anyway or the government covers the award the same as redundancy pay from a wound up company if I remember rightly so the ex-employees would not lose out.
Would those rules still apply to a registered charity..

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Old 12-03-2014, 08:07 AM
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As I have posted elsewhere:-

The bottom line is if you employ people, be it as a company or self employed, there are laws which have to be adhered to. MAG UK did not follow those laws therefore they got taken to court and lost, irrespective of the way the employees were treated. Which I think was out of order. As to how MAG UK as company and as a Membership organisation is run, is a subject for another debate....
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:24 AM
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Would those rules still apply to a registered charity..

John.
MAG ltd is not a charity - MAG Foundation was the bit registered as a charity, can't remember the reasons someone did explain it once but i think it is/was too political to classify the main body as a charity. MAG foundation was the bit set up to allow projects related to things like road safety etc to be run in a tax efficient way and that has no employees but don't pay much attention to me I have never really had anything to do with MAG central.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:53 PM
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Maybe Mitch can make a comment as to what is really happening rather than what a website journalist has written. I seem to remember the changing of company set up for MAG being planned (inc setting up new company) and voted on at the AGC last year way before a tribunal was even on the cards. Anyway I would suspect under TUPE rules they might be able to claim off the new company anyway or the government covers the award the same as redundancy pay from a wound up company if I remember rightly so the ex-employees would not lose out.
You may well be right but that means we, the taxpayer, will foot the bill for MAG's poor treatment of their employees and they will skip any responsibility. I do not think that is good enough, if they had apologized and paid up (and sorted their working practices) then I would have no problem with them, after all everybody makes mistakes.
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:32 PM
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If you go on the 100% Biker Group on Facebook there I a big debate raging over this very subject. mitch has tried to give a fair account of MAG's position but there seems to be a lot of disgruntled members. The only way to change MAG is to vote if you are a member. But voting only seems to take place at the AGC/AGM and not every one can or is able to attend. No one seems to want to take on the jobs or offer themselves forward to challenge the top positions, so it seems that the same old same old get re-elected.
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by wurzel View Post
Anyway I would suspect under TUPE rules they might be able to claim off the new company anyway or the government covers the award the same as redundancy pay from a wound up company if I remember rightly so the ex-employees would not lose out.
Not so. The liability allowed as M.A.G. (UK) Ltd. is a company limited by guarantee (not shares) is £1 per member. Which means that if M.A.G. (UK) Ltd. is ever wound up properly, each current member would owe a quid – which would cost more than that to get for the Administrators.
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Old 13-03-2014, 12:52 AM
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Not so. The liability allowed as M.A.G. (UK) Ltd. is a company limited by guarantee (not shares) is £1 per member. Which means that if M.A.G. (UK) Ltd. is ever wound up properly, each current member would owe a quid – which would cost more than that to get for the Administrators.
Are ALL members, current and new aware that they have a legal liability? No matter how small?

Sounds to me as if MAG, a supposed Riders Rights group, is using a legal entity designed to protect business owners/directors, to cover themselves. If any organisation that is run on a not for profit basis, needs that kind of legal protection, I have to ask what risks the organisation is taking?

Is MAG running up huge costs on credit terms? I understand that office premises are needed and that the organisation has some wage bills to meet, plus other associated running costs. However, if MAG is running up debts then something is seriously wrong with the management.

Alternatively, are those in charge of running MAG, using limited liability to protect themselves from other wrong doings? Working for any organisation, does not mean that those at the top of the ladder can ignore employment law and abuse staff. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for non compliance.

From the outside, it looks to me as if those at the top have a serious mis-management problem. By taking the action they have, all they have done is
treat the symptoms of the problem instead of the cause. Typical management bully boy tactics, usually employed to cover their own failings.

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Old 13-03-2014, 05:10 AM
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Well said that Man!
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Old 13-03-2014, 07:55 AM
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They have had a serious senior management problem for a long time, starting with Liversausage trying to ban the bully and buying private security services to police one of the Stormin' rallies, hiring personal security in case anything happened to him.

Not supporting various MAG groups because they would not toe the party line, that why many MAG groups disappear and then re-appear and then disappear again. That is fact, as I have spoken to a number of guys who were in those groups where it has happened.

People trying to mix it with politicians, who eat them alive, inexperienced "managers" trying to be managers, as it has been said, same old same old at the top, keep a clique alive, no doubt there a one or two that try, but changing any type of culture is well nigh impossible if they don't want to change, they like to inflate their own egos, "because I am important"

They keep an army of sycophantic grass roots members, banging the tambourines " come and join us" so they believe they are actually doing something.

The only biker group in my eyes that actually does something solid is NABD, although like any other organisation they have their faults, its all a matter of degree.

The parallels with a political party are so obvious ..... but they aren't politicians, which is why they fail
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Old 13-03-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Are ALL members, current and new aware that they have a legal liability? No matter how small?
YES. It's in MAG's constitution. All members receive a copy of it when joining and you would hope they actually read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Sounds to me as if MAG, a supposed Riders Rights group, is using a legal entity designed to protect business owners/directors, to cover themselves. If any organisation that is run on a not for profit basis, needs that kind of legal protection, I have to ask what risks the organisation is taking?
Are you a member? It's a standard setup for non-profits. Read this...
http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/artic...t-right/517844

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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Is MAG running up huge costs on credit terms? I understand that office premises are needed and that the organisation has some wage bills to meet, plus other associated running costs. However, if MAG is running up debts then something is seriously wrong with the management.
No it isn't. The company is paying invoices as they come in. Maybe you ought to do some financial due diligence before making such unfounded statements.

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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Alternatively, are those in charge of running MAG, using limited liability to protect themselves from other wrong doings? Working for any organisation, does not mean that those at the top of the ladder can ignore employment law and abuse staff. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for non compliance.
Ignorance of the facts surrounding the case is something else entirely

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From the outside, it looks to me as if those at the top have a serious mis-management problem. By taking the action they have, all they have done is
treat the symptoms of the problem instead of the cause. Typical management bully boy tactics, usually employed to cover their own failings.
Tell that to the Board member Selina Lavender who looked after HR, but was being bullied by Nich Brown, etc. Tell that to Ian Mutch who was accused publicly by Tyson of having images of pre-pubescent girls in The Road.
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Old 13-03-2014, 08:04 AM
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Well said that Man!
Why? For spouting a load of twaddle FT?
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Old 13-03-2014, 08:32 AM
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Same old, same old...

thanks for that FT.

STATEMENT FROM MAG’S NATIONAL COMMITTEE
MARCH 13, 2014

Embargo –*immediate

M.A.G. (UK) Ltd was recently the Respondent in an Employment Tribunal case brought by former staff Nich Brown, Paddy Tyson and Louisa Smith. The claimants obtained a judgment in their favour for constructive unfair dismissal. The case mainly concerned the relationship between the claimants and M.A.G. (UK) Ltd directors Neil Liversidge and Pete Walker who were elected to the Board in April 2012 in response to membership concerns about the poor management of MAG Central Office.

Mr Liversidge was originally nominated for co-option to the Board in November 2011, the Board having three vacancies out of seven seats at that time. Despite the Board being under-strength Mr Liversidge's co-option was blocked after Board Members were pressured to refuse his nomination. Mr Liversidge and Mr Walker were nevertheless elected at the subsequent AGM despite various efforts at preventing the same. For 25 years the convention has been that paid MAG officials are neutral in such matters, however various sources confirm that paid staff were interfering in the elections. Regrettably the staff behaviour did not improve with the election of the new Board, the efforts of which were consistently obstructed, direct instructions ignored and key management information withheld or falsified. One of the claimants made a particularly nasty attempt to undermine and blacken the name of MAG's founder and President Ian Mutch. Previous directors had experienced similar tactics as did other officers and ordinary members. It was of extreme concern that MAG Central Office was not efficient due to Mr Brown and Mr Tyson's prioritisation of their own Overland magazine and touring venture, carried out in MAG hours when they should instead have been focused on the jobs MAG was paying them to do. Their negligence of their MAG duties resulted, amongst other problems, in their total failure to manage the long-running database project and failure to attend important meetings.

The Board asked Directors Mr Liversidge and Mr Walker to take over the HR role with effect from 12 March 2013. They immediately convened staff meetings for the following Monday. Mr Brown, Mr Tyson and Ms Smith refused to attend and breached the chain of management by seeking the intervention of others not part of line management. On the weekend before the planned meetings all three filed 'notices of intended grievance' considered as final 'spoiler' attempts to prevent the meetings. The meetings went ahead and were covertly recorded by Mr Brown et al. Ironically their own recordings amply evidence the claimants' poor attitude and their disruptive behaviour along with, the then National Chair Denise Powell. Following the meetings Mr Brown was suspended pending disciplinary action. An investigation by an independent HR consultant found that MAG had grounds to dismiss Mr Brown. Ms Smith and Mr Tyson were signed off as unfit to work. All three resigned before any disciplinary action could actually be taken. MAG only incurred very small costs in this case.

MAG is naturally disappointed by the judgment which it does not accept as either fair or as an accurate reflection of the true circumstances. MAG is therefore appealing. The harm done by the claimants in the meantime has necessitated a restructuring. This has been successfully carried through and as a result MAG's work has not been affected. MAG now has a smaller but loyal and highly capable team that is accomplishing more than ever before. We are very happy and proud of them. In addition MAG has protected the monies from membership fees and the funds that members work hard to bring in as donations so that MAG never finds itself in this situation again.

MAG is completely comfortable with the morality of its position and now looks forward to concentrating on its mission - fighting for the rights of motorcyclists.

THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE
MOTORCYCLE ACTION GROUP
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Old 13-03-2014, 09:41 AM
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The only biker group in my eyes that actually does something solid is NABD, although like any other organisation they have their faults
Well, we are a bunch of cripples with various bits missing.... Some even have a few loose screws that need tightening occasionally.
Snigger....
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Old 13-03-2014, 06:43 PM
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Mitch, Chopper did state at the Beginning "Sounds To Me", and what I have read else where on FB as you know, it does "Sounds to Me" as well.

I know I don't know all the ins and outs. But what Chopper has written made some sense to me, sorry but I felt in agreement.

However I did wholly support your efforts to bring change to MAG and have said so on FB. and the only way to bring change is for the members to vote, rather than whinge all the time, and like I said elsewhere (FB) maybe MAG should introduce Postal Voting, as not everyone can make the AGM.....
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Old 13-03-2014, 07:30 PM
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YES. It's in MAG's constitution. All members receive a copy of it when joining and you would hope they actually read it.

Well I certainly hope they do. If MAG were to go under, owing money to creditors, this could affect their personal credit rating. With todays uncertain financial climate, finance houses and banks are being very careful who they lend to. Credit scores are very easy to damage and once damaged the effects can be very far reaching.



Are you a member? It's a standard setup for non-profits. Read this...
http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/artic...t-right/517844

No. I am not a member. Not for a hell of a long time. I walked out of a meeting due to the prevalence of extreme bullshit, empire builders and egotistical muppets that had no fucking idea what they were doing. Once MAG employed an EX PIG in a salaried position, I swore I would never re-new my membership or support ANY action, event or cause sponsored or supported by MAG. The current shit storm encircling MAG does absolutely nothing to encourage any ex member to return. As a new member I would be very concerned at MAG's actions and the attitude of senior members of staff.



No it isn't. The company is paying invoices as they come in. Maybe you ought to do some financial due diligence before making such unfounded statements.

Maybe you should try and understand the difference between a statement and a question.



Ignorance of the facts surrounding the case is something else entirely

Yes it is, we have your version of the facts, but have heard nothing from any other party directly involved. Shout as loud as you want, does not mean more will hear you.



Tell that to the Board member Selina Lavender who looked after HR, but was being bullied by Nich Brown, etc. Tell that to Ian Mutch who was accused publicly by Tyson of having images of pre-pubescent girls in The Road.
Now who is making allegations? If I was Ian Mutch, I think I would be more than a tad pissed off at someone making that sort of statement on a public forum. Do you have any actual proof? Is Ian Mutch aware that you are making such statements? If so, does he approve of your actions?

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Old 13-03-2014, 08:37 PM
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Now who is making allegations? If I was Ian Mutch, I think I would be more than a tad pissed off at someone making that sort of statement on a public forum. Do you have any actual proof? Is Ian Mutch aware that you are making such statements? If so, does he approve of your actions?

Chopper
Yes. I do have proof. It's contained in the evidence bundle. Give us your email address and I’ll send you a copy.

As for the rest of your statements.

1. MAG has got enough money to pay the bills. We don’t run up credit other than the usual 30 days.

2. If you’re referring to David Short…? Agreed. I understand it was his ‘fault’, we’ve got that logo –*which I don’t like. (or words to that effect). With regards to the Board of Directors, like the NC, and myself, they are all volunteers. Not paid staff. NFL isn’t the MD either. Top of the tree as far as MAG is concerned, is me. The paid staff are the exec. officer who deals with accounting matters and line management, membership administration and the lobbying team.

3. Our version of the facts came out after much shouting by the other side and their friends.
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Old 13-03-2014, 08:37 PM
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If MAG was innocent, why did they lose the tribunal case. These matters are not undertaken lightly and most of the panel who appear on them are experienced people. No one interest is represented ie. Not all workers or bosses or Union Officers, so hopefully a fair cross section from industry. I understand that witnesses etc can lie or misrepresent certain events but in the end it comes down to who is more believable, just as with a criminal action. The Complainants won, so that tells me what I need to know, I can't speak for anybody else because everybody has their own opinion.
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Old 13-03-2014, 10:01 PM
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If MAG was innocent, why did they lose the tribunal case. These matters are not undertaken lightly and most of the panel who appear on them are experienced people. No one interest is represented ie. Not all workers or bosses or Union Officers, so hopefully a fair cross section from industry. I understand that witnesses etc can lie or misrepresent certain events but in the end it comes down to who is more believable, just as with a criminal action. The Complainants won, so that tells me what I need to know, I can't speak for anybody else because everybody has their own opinion.
Because the judge did not take the facts into account. That does tend to happen. However, Remedy is where the facts do come into their own.

http://www.youremploymentlaw.net/sol...e-polkey-rule/

Also, it is a single judge. Not a panel like magistrates.
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Old 13-03-2014, 10:36 PM
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like I said elsewhere (FB) maybe MAG should introduce Postal Voting, as not everyone can make the AGM.....
Not while a government commissioner says that postal votes are open to abuse...
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Old 14-03-2014, 08:43 AM
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I understand that witnesses etc can lie or misrepresent certain events but in the end it comes down to who is more believable, just as with a criminal action. The Complainants won, so that tells me what I need to know, I can't speak for anybody else because everybody has their own opinion.
It was prejudiced against NFL from the start –*a 6'2" well-built Yorkshireman from roughly the same part of Yorkshire as Geoff Boycott (Wakefield and Barnsley are only 12 miles apart), who – due to being deaf in one ear –*has volume control difficulties so can be seen as rather imposing.

People who were at the hearing say that the decision has no basis on what was discussed.

Don't forget, lying under oath (which is the case in a tribunal as it is a court of law) is still an offence.
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Old 14-03-2014, 10:13 AM
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I am no fan of NFL (have had stand up auguments with him) and have yet to make an opinion on which set of facts are correct - but - having been at a tribunal myself having to represent my company i watched an ex employee who had retired 6 weeks before an asset transfer lie that they were still an employee and thus covered under TUPE and due a redundancy payout. As that person was the person who had done accounts payroll there was no papertrail to show that retirement had happened (she would have been the one doing the paperwork) and the tribunal are apt to go with individuals over companies. That cost us £17k, employment tribunals are a coin toss.

However saying that NFL representing MAG in a case which was based on whether or not he is a bully was a car crash waiting to happen as I do not believe he is capable of toning down his manner and thus as soon as he stood up and opened his mouth he was doomed even if there had been no evidence put forward by the other side. Really want to know who thought it was a good idea (other than him)
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Old 15-03-2014, 08:39 AM
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Not while a government commissioner says that postal votes are open to abuse...
I'd like to think the biker fraternity are a bit better than Joe Public and would rather have the opportunity to have an alternative way to vote. There are many companies that have AGM's and shareholders have the right to vote by proxy. i.e postal voting.

Why not MAG?
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Old 15-03-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post

Also, it is a single judge. Not a panel like magistrates.
As A Union Rep I always understood that a tribunal was three people (the TRI being the operative word) and that they represented various sections of the work arena, thus creating a judgment that was not biased towards one section of that work arena. I stand corrected if what you say is indeed correct. Lying under oath is indeed a crime but one side must be wrong (either mistaken or lying or a combination of both) or there would be no case to answer in the first place.
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Old 15-03-2014, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Friar Tuck View Post
I'd like to think the biker fraternity are a bit better than Joe Public and would rather have the opportunity to have an alternative way to vote. There are many companies that have AGM's and shareholders have the right to vote by proxy. i.e postal voting.

Why not MAG?
Firstly, it would take a constitutional change – to be voted on at an AGM, where people attend to vote. Those that do, don't see why everyone else who can't be arsed, should get a vote.

Secondly, see my previous post.
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Old 15-03-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir Ewok View Post
As A Union Rep I always understood that a tribunal was three people (the TRI being the operative word) and that they represented various sections of the work arena, thus creating a judgment that was not biased towards one section of that work arena. I stand corrected if what you say is indeed correct. Lying under oath is indeed a crime but one side must be wrong (either mistaken or lying or a combination of both) or there would be no case to answer in the first place.
Maybe I ought to introduce you to a few people who would put you right on a few things (and no, I don't mean with a lump of 4x2, I mean regional reps who were at the hearings). The 'case' to answer was a put-up job to circumvent MAG's democratic process (read the statement again – I have the evidence to back it up).
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