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  #1  
Old 02-02-2016, 08:47 PM
GOBB GOBB is offline
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Default starter solinoid / motor issues

Hey not sure if this is the right catagory*

im having issues with getting my bike to start*
took the starter motor off to check them and cont get them working together*
hope the vid helps im loosing my mind for what it might be*
any help would be great thanks*

https://youtu.be/OXRvHbTvtpA

if anybody can advise if im doing something wrong or needs more information please let me know
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:56 PM
wiskers wiskers is offline
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Could be wrong

But if you have a meter put it across the starter check voltage if you haven't got battery voltage across the starter there's a good chance the solenoid is fucked

The contacts wear just like points (remember them) so the solenoid closes but the power won't get through due to contamination ( bloody hell that's a long word for me)

The starter seems fine but strip and clean anyway get the shit out it will be capped up

Due to the solenoid throwing but not powering up the starter I would suspect it's U,S, and a new one is on the cards

I have repaired them in the past (when you could get inside them)

Test solenoid but putting a heavy screwdriver across the two big terminals on it (i used to start my old Gpz this way )

Hope this helps Dai
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Last edited by wiskers; 03-02-2016 at 12:05 AM. Reason: Bit about bridging solenoid
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:30 AM
wiskers wiskers is offline
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Let's try to simplify that

Everything connected press button nothing happens good chance button fucked

Everything connected solenoid clicks if battery good fair chance solenoid fucked

Everything connected sollinoid clicks voltage across starter good = starter fucked

Everything connected solenoid clicks starter spins bike not turn over

starter clutch fucked

Think that should get you sorted

Unless it's a harley with big bore and high lift cams then the starter just ain't powerful enough ( don't ask me how I know)

That should do you Dai
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:02 AM
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Maybe the bike's fucked?

Just trying to help.....
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:07 AM
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That looks like a pre-engaged starter where the solenoid is mounted on the starter, and they are complicated because each relies on the other for connections. Whiskers second post is the way to go first of all. I can help further if that don't work.
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:40 AM
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Hi
its a 1981 Tr1 (xv1000) when on the bike and wired up i press the button and get a click (i can see the starter solinoid plunger move) but thats it no movement from the starter motor. is there a way of checking the solonoud further as i really want to be 100% sure before paying the 140 it is for a new one (im on a tight budget)
thanks guys
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:43 AM
wiskers wiskers is offline
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Bridge the large terminals on the solenoid this will give the same affect as the solenoid closing

It's probably corrosion on the bar inside that makes the contact

If you can't get to the terminals on the solenoid check the voltage at the starter another thing to check is the voltage of the battery under load it may have lost some capacity and no longer up to the job

It's a simple enough circuit but remember that it's got to turn over a big lump it's not spinning up four little pistons but two big uns

Good luck with it Dai
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:47 AM
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I can't give bike specific advice as I've never worked on that bike.

But the way a pre engaged starter works is this.

There are two windings inside the solenoid, they are the throwing and the holding windings. When you press the starter button a feed is sent to both windings, this throws the solenoid right over engaging the starter with the engine vis the primary gears. As soon as full engagement is made the contacts inside the solenoid close sending power to the starter. However the throwing winding is earthed through the starter which is now live so the throwing winding has a positive at each end effectivley switching it off. The solenoid is now held in position by the holding winding untill you release the button.

This is why this system is so often misdiagnosed, as a faulty starter stops the solenoid working and a faulty solenoid stops the starter working.

The most common fault is knackered brushes in the starter this deprives the solenoid of an earth connection for the throwing winding leaving the holding winding trying to move the starter pinion on its own and it not powerful enough to do so. The solenoid clicks and nothing happens.
However as your starter appears to work it probably (but not definately) is not that.
Another probability is that one winding in the solenoid has packed up it will still click but not enough movement to work the starter.
None of this prevents a mechanical fault in the starter clutch or primary drive to the engine.

In your place I would get a multi meter and measure the resistance of the solenoid windings. Here's the rub. The holding winding will have a high resistance and is measured between the switch terminal and the casing. The throwing winding will have a much lower resistance and is measured between the switch terminal (again) and the starter terminal ( when disconnected from the starter motor) if either of these reading infinity or no resistance the solenoid is fucked.
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:01 PM
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ive tried a diffrent solonoid (friend had one not brand new but thought it woth a try i now have both starter solinoid and motor working together 😊 BUT...... The solonoid gets crazy hot 😡😡 can anybody shed some light as to why this might be happening

thanks

youtube vid to follow
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:04 PM
wiskers wiskers is offline
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Another possible cause could be the starter button yamaha switches are normally pretty reliable bit in this case we're talking about a 35 year old bike

Test the switch by measuring the voltage at the thin wire on the solenoid when the button is pressed if the voltage is down try taking a wire from the battery positive to the small contact on the solenoid

If I remember correctly the TR 1 suffered from a week starter clutch

Also top engine mounts were another week spot

Harry or myself could probably find the problem quickly if we had the bike infront of us but it's difficult to do it like this

I'm in hospital tomorrow and Harry's off to Ireland Monday so unless someone else comes in your going to be on your own for a few days

You should now have something to keep you busy for a few days if you follow both what Harry and myself have said you should find the dodgy component

Good luck with it Dai
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:11 PM
wiskers wiskers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOBB View Post
ive tried a diffrent solonoid (friend had one not brand new but thought it woth a try i now have both starter solinoid and motor working together 😊 BUT...... The solonoid gets crazy hot 😡😡 can anybody shed some light as to why this might be happening

thanks

youtube vid to follow

Anything electrical getting hot is a warning sign
Battery terminals get hot when loose (spelin )
A electric heater is just a big resister
Why was the solenoid that your mate had taken off the bike I've never taken a good one off
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:00 AM
wiskers wiskers is offline
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Just watched your video again

I'm not sure how you have it wired up on the bench it looks like you have the battery positive going to the starter and the solinoid this is wrong if I'm seeing this right this will cause a direct short in the solinoid causing massive heat

You should have the battery positive going to the solenoid then the other side of the solinoid going to the positive on the starter (heavy cables)

The negative side goes to earth on both the starter and solinoid

In your second video it looks like you have it wired correctly but the starter clutch has given up the ghost or it could possibly be a earth issue there's lots of good video's on youtube on starter problems one of the best is A work around for a Yamaha Virago Starter Clutch Problems
Doctor Virago has many good video's on youtube that will serve you well

It would be a lot easier if the large terminals on the solenoid were marked in and out not positive and negative the only earth connections go to the body of both starter and solinoid when on the motor this is through the engine casings

Accept my apologies if I'm seeing the wiring wrong

Cheers Dai
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Last edited by wiskers; 04-02-2016 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:48 AM
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You may simply have swapped the wiring of the two heavy cables on the solenoid. Yes one goes to the battery positive and the other to the starter motor but it does matter which is wich.

With reference to my previous very long post, one of those terminals ( the one going to the starter) is connected to the windings in the solenoid. if you connect the battery lead to that terminal the winding will have a permanent feed cause it to get hot and then burn out quite quickly, as it is only meant to be live for less than a second.

This is probably what knackered your solenoid and with luck has not yet knackered the replacement yet.

Hope this helps.
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