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Old 26-09-2011, 03:47 PM
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Default MEP - Respounce EU anti mod regs etc...

Thank you for contacting my office regarding the regulation on the approval and market surveillance of two or three-wheel vehicles affecting motorbikes which is currently at first reading stage in the European Parliament.

Following the Commission proposal, the draft report has been authored for the Internal Market and Consumer Protection Committee (IMCO) by Dutch MEP Wim van de Camp, an enthusiastic motorcyclist. The amendment deadline of the report has passed and following correspondence from constituents, my Labour colleague Catherine Stihler, who is a member of the IMCO Committee, has tabled amendments with Socialist colleagues to take comments from constituents into account.

After the vote in IMCO the Rapporteur, Mr van de Camp and shadow rapporteurs representing each of the political groups will negotiate the finer details of the report with national Governments and the Commission to find a solution which is fair and acceptable for all parties involved.

Compulsory ABS
The Commission proposal recommended compulsory ABS to be fitted to all newly manufactured 2 or 3 wheeled vehicles. Following consultation with the Department of Business and Innovation it is my understanding that compulsory ABS is not appropriate for all vehicles or terrains. The current proposal takes this into account with an exemption for enduro and trial bikes which are the bikes which are most affected by ABS. As a compromise, we believe that ABS should be fitted to all new vehicles, with the default position of the ABS being engaged on starting the engine. However, there should be the option of starting the engine to disengage ABS for dirt tracks or rocky terrain. Compulsory ABS should not apply to lower powered motorcycles as the cost/benefit ratio is not sufficient, this is a position which the Socialist shadow rapporteur will encourage in negotiations with the Council.



High Visibility Jackets
Concerns have been raised that it will be mandatory for all riders to wear high visibility jackets. This lies outside the scope of the report, and as a result does not feature. There is a level of discussion in some Member States to introduce proposals related to high visibility jackets but please be reassured that this will not happen in the UK and the rumours that it will are completely untrue.

Banning of older motorcycles from Urban Areas
Older motorcycles will not be banned from urban areas in this report. Again, this rumour has surfaced from discussions by some national Governments in Members States but rest assured the UK will not ban older motorcycles from being used anywhere in the UK.

Anti-Tampering legislation
Labour MEPs are aware of the value to the single market of aftermarket sales and servicing. Further, we understand that there is a deep rooted cultural history of self-maintenance and modification. Please be reassured that this regulation is not intended to stop this practice. The anti-tampering legislation is designed to stop dangerous modifications from taking place and to put a stop to those practices which put riders’ lives at risk.

Single vehicle approvals (SVA) will continue to be legal for those who wish to make modifications to their motorcycle. The majority of the suggestions made in the draft regulation are already in place in the UK at present.

Mandatory on board diagnostics (OBD)
Most PTW manufacturers producing new models are already compliant with the rules regarding OBD in the draft regulation (OBD stage (I)). This section of the draft regulation will not provide police with any details of the ride behaviour of motorcyclists; rather it is in place purely to warn the rider of a serious malfunction to enable them to bring the motorcycle to a controlled stop.

The next stage of the legislation is a Committee vote which is due to take place on October 17th, though is expected to be delayed to allow more time for negotiations. Following the Committee vote the report is likely to be voted by all MEPs in mid-November. If you wish to be kept informed of the progress of this legislation, please let me know.


Best wishes



Glenis Willmott MEP
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Old 26-09-2011, 04:15 PM
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interesting points there
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Old 26-09-2011, 04:34 PM
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I received exactly the same stock 'cut and pasted' letter from one of my MEP's

They are being a bit disingenuous, the absolute denial that there is no suggestion of Hi Viz and the rest being made compulsory in the UK, since that is wide of the truth.

As I see it......

These laws are being introduced under 'Standardisation and harmony'. The concept is that all bikes in Europe are the same, all the tests on bikes are the same and so on.

If the initial tranche of laws go through, that is merely the first of these laws to be put into place.
The Framework Directive (as I understand it) is designed to grow and there is nothing to stop any member state proposing that THEIR laws, (Hi Viz, banning bikes over7 years old, no filtering and so on), are added to the Framework as amendments to become European standard.

The fear is that that the Eurocrats may simply 'rubber stamp' these amendments without giving them the attention they deserve.
Also France may attempt one of their famous 'you vote with me on this and I won't vote against you on that' deals they are (allegedly) fond of.

One MEP wrote along the lines of ' It is not as harsh as some people are trying to make out since each country will retain the right to enforce it's own level of SVA'

Today. Only because the Commission hasn't standardised it yet. They have to get the initial laws in place first and I do believe that this proposal is only a year or two away.
And what standard do you think will they adopt? Softest, harshest or somewhere in the middle?
To think it would be anything BUT the harshest would be to assume that the Germans are going to lower their standards - and I seriously doubt that is going to happen.
Me? Cynical? I was trained by experts.

And the 'future of Powered Two Wheelers (and trikes and quads) with the EU' is here
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultatio...euproposal.pdf
It is in Civil Servant Speak.
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Old 26-09-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
The anti-tampering legislation is designed to stop dangerous modifications from taking place and to put a stop to those practices which put riders’ lives at risk.

Single vehicle approvals (SVA) will continue to be legal for those who wish to make modifications to their motorcycle.
The way I read it, and its what I was expecting, is that we will end up with a paid for inspection for modifications that we see as minor now. Change the exhaust and pay up to get it tested. We will then be told we have won the battle as the rest of europe cant do any mods.

Hope I am wrong
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Old 26-09-2011, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wearthefoxhat View Post
One MEP wrote along the lines of ' It is not as harsh as some people are trying to make out since each country will retain the right to enforce it's own level of SVA'
Whenever the EU bring in a law that will allow the member countries to generate capital in the form of fines, Britain ALWAYS enforce it.

These laws will turn biking into a rich mans sport, reduce the sales of new motorbikes in the UK to a fraction of it's present level, at least decimate motorbike repair shops, destroy the used motorbike sales market, and make spare parts only available over the internet from overseas suppliers.

In the meantime the British MPs will pat themselves on the back for creating a new market in specialised dayglow clothing..Have they thought about who they will have left to sell it to?

John.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by excalibur View Post
The way I read it, and its what I was expecting, is that we will end up with a paid for inspection for modifications that we see as minor now. Change the exhaust and pay up to get it tested. We will then be told we have won the battle as the rest of europe cant do any mods.

Hope I am wrong
I think you're probably right.
The problem is, some of the lethal litter you see on the road, presumably MoT'd, makes it hard to argue against, although it would be interesting to see some stats about accidents caused by mechanical alterations.
Not a huge number, I'd guess, which would suggest that this is all about conformity for conformity's sake, not safety.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themanfromporlock View Post
conformity for conformity's sake,
nail, head.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:57 PM
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Very few bike accidents are caused by poor maintenance, it is that low that in certain european countries they dont have bike mot's.
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Old 26-09-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Whenever the EU bring in a law that will allow the member countries to generate capital in the form of fines, Britain ALWAYS enforce it.
Like we hound a market trader with several coppers and trading standards, sending him to prison for selling a pound of bananas, but the frogs turn a blind eye to the illegal bans on UK beef
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Old 26-09-2011, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by excalibur View Post
Like we hound a market trader with several coppers and trading standards, sending him to prison for selling a pound of bananas, but the frogs turn a blind eye to the illegal bans on UK beef
Hard to understand why a shopkeeper can't sell food by the pound but you can still buy a pint of beer, drive a mile, have roadworks in 500 yards, weigh 18 stone, wood is sold by width in millimetres and length in yards feet and inches, eggs are sold by the dozen and half dozen..Even horses are still measured by the hand.

So the only reason for fining a shopkeeper is to generate money for the government.

John.
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Old 27-09-2011, 01:52 PM
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its also worth remembering that as worthy as the mep wants to sound, everyone knows that mep's dont weild the power in the eu, the european commission does, and they arent elected(and thus sackable). if the ec wants something, then 9 times out of 10 they get it, even if it takes time. they can afford to wait as they arent governed by an election term. its more or less a job for life. now if the mep's decide they dont want these regs, or say that they arent in the documents, thats not always a sure sign that we wont end up with them eventually, cos what the commisioners want is what we will end up with, and thats regardless of whether we as bikers, the european parliament, national governments or the general public want, know about or support it.
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Old 28-09-2011, 08:16 AM
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What is not mentioned in the stock reply is that while the draft proposal does not as they say contain all the scary stuff there have been 305 (yes you read that right 305) ammendments tabled by various parties which do cover all that and more.

If no fuss was kicked up don't you just think that they would all be voted for on the nod rather than properley debated - i mean if you could get away with not having to do it wouldn't you rather just vote yes to everything and slope off to an expensed long lunch than listen to 305 ammendments individually
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Old 28-09-2011, 08:19 AM
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Here is a great excert from some EU minutes that MAG sent out - they were honestly debating whether to mandate reverse gear on big bikes.

MCWG (motorcycle working group) Meeting, 11 January 2011

The Dutch expert requested clarification on item 12 regarding
steer-ability, cornering properties and turn-ability;

The Commission representative replied that this is a set of appropriate
and base safety requirement for L-category vehicle steering
requirements, not only for individually approved motorcycles in for
example Finland where this is a national requirement already today, but
also for mass produced vehicles. In addition some provisions from UNECE
regulation 97 on steering gear may be applicable, although L-category
vehicles are currently not in its scope including obstacle avoidance and
lane chance type of testing. He also pointed out that dependent on the
size and/or weight of a motorcycle it may be useful if a reverse gear is
fitted to be able to perform a U-turn with a very heavy and big
motorcycle.

The Dutch representative proposed including a weight limit for such
motorcycles above which a reverse gear should be fitted to assist the
driver.

The French representative stated that in their national approval
legislation such a weight limit to fit a reverse gear was already included.

FEMA would like to rely on the market as vehicle owners would not buy
such a vehicle that cannot be handled or appropriately turned owing to
its high weight or big dimensions.

ACEM is not in favour at all for such a limit and reverse gear
requirements and supports FEMA in this respect.

The Commission representative understood FEMA's and ACEM's position for
two-wheel vehicles, but pointed out that requirements in this area will
be developed for 3- and 4-wheel vehicles.
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Old 28-09-2011, 11:28 AM
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Another MEP's response

Thank you for taking the time to write to me recently to highlight the
issues that you, as a motor cycle enthusiast, have with the proposed EU
legislation regarding 'Approval and Market Surveillance Regulations of
Two-or-Three-Wheel Vehicles and Quadricycles'.

I understand your concerns with some of the detailed proposals under
discussion, as there appear to be genuine concerns about the potential
to create a set of rules that could be quite unfair to motor cyclists.
I am not in favour of un-necessarily rigid regulation, and will
certainly take your ideas on board, in the belief that a more balanced
approach should be found that better combines any genuine safety issues
with the cost and practical implications of regulation.

For example, anti-tampering has been a contentious issue for many years
and I am aware of the arguments driving the issue. On the one hand, no
one wishes to see low powered machines tampered with to the extents that
they become high speed vehicles capable of speeds beyond the ability of
the rider or of the design parameters of the brakes, frame etc. On the
other hand, it is ridiculous that in extreme cases nothing can be
changed on a machine, even items like the original make of tyre having
to be fitted when replacement time comes. I agree that the former cases
are best dealt with by enforcement and sensible modifications should be
left to the owners.

Regards,

Jill Evans MEP
Plaid Cymru
T: 01443 441395
Email: contact@jillevans.net
Ebost: cyswllt@jillevans.net
www.jillevans.net
www.jillevansblog.net
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Old 28-09-2011, 12:43 PM
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wow a real articulate reply from an MP who seems to understand
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Old 28-09-2011, 06:48 PM
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I notice she is Welsh.

John.
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Old 28-09-2011, 09:02 PM
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I shall vote Plaid Cymru in the next Reading election then
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Old 29-09-2011, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by excalibur View Post
Whenever the EU bring in a law that will allow the member countries to generate capital in the form of fines, Britain ALWAYS enforce it.

Like we hound a market trader with several coppers and trading standards, sending him to prison for selling a pound of bananas, but the frogs turn a blind eye to the illegal bans on UK beef
in italy, we're a laughing stock.
they call EU laws the 'english laws' because we're the only nation that bothers to actually enforce them.
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Old 29-09-2011, 10:32 PM
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DfT are running a consultation paper on their site,
Sugest you take a look.

Section 23 talks about fitting Combined Braking Systems onto small CC bikes.
these bikes will have learners on them that are not aware how front wheel slip happens and if they know they will not have the option of using rear braking only.

Section 24 talks about prevention of tampering with the power train, to prevent damage to the environment and keep the rider safe. The worrying thing is it say

'' details of measures are not included in the proposal and will be laid down in a deligated act''

IN OTHER WORDS APROVE THIS PROPOSAL AND THEN WE CAN DO WHAT WE LIKE WITHOUT CONSULTATION

You can have your say now about it, I have written and demanded we retain the right of consultation and the DELIGATED ACTS should be written out of this proposal.... I would sugest you do likewise.
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Old 30-09-2011, 01:42 PM
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Another letter received by me today ........... (lots of typing not a email to cut and paste from.)

RE: EU proposals on motorcycles

Thank you for contacting my office regarding the regulation on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three wheel vehicles affecting Motorbikes which is currently at the first reading in the European Parliament.

Following the commission proposal, the draft report has been authored for the Internal Market and Consumer Protection Committee (IMCO) by Dutch MEP Wim van de Camp, an enthusiastic motorcyclist. The amendment deadline of the report has now passed and the following correspondence from constituents, my Labour colleague Catherine Stihler, who is a member of the IMCO Committee, has tabled amendments with Socialist colleagues to take comments from constituents into account.

After the vote in IMCO the raporteur, Mr van de Camp and shadow raporteurs representing each of the political groups will negotiate for the finer details of the report with national Governments and commission to find a solution which is fair and acceptable for all parties involved.

I have received many letters and emails on the proposals. A summary of the main issues that have been raised is as follows:

Compulsory ABS

The Commission proposal recommended compulsory ABS to e fitted to all newly manufactured 2 and 3 wheeled vehicles. Following consultation with the department for Business and Innovation it is my understanding that compulsory ABS is not appropriate for all vehicles or terrains. The current proposal takes this into account with an exemption for enduro and trials bikes which are bikes which are most effected by ABS. As a compromise, we believe that ABS should be fitted to all new vehicles, with the default position of the ABS being engaged on starting the engine. However, there should be the option of starting the engine to disengage ABS for dirt tracks or rocky terrain. Compulsory ABS should not apply to lower powered motorcycles as the cost/benefit ratio is not sufficient, this is a position which the Socialist shadow rapporteur will encourage in negotiations with the committee.

High Visibility Jackets

Concerns have been raised that it will be mandatory for all riders to wear high visibility jackets. This lies outside the scope of the report, and as a result does not feature. There is a level of discussion in the Member States to introduce proposals related to hi visibility jackets but please be reassures it will not happen in the UK and rumors it will are completely untrue.


Banning of older motorcycles from urban areas


Older motorcycles will not be banned from urban areas in this report. Again, this rumour has surfaced from discussions from some Governments in Member States but rest assured the UK will not ban older motorcycles from being used anywhere in the UK.

Anti Tampering legislation

Labour MEP's are aware of the value of the single market of aftermarket sales and servicing. Further, we understand the deep rooted cultural history of self maintenance and modification. Please be reassured that this regulation is not intended to stop this practice. The anti-tampering legislation is to stop dangerous modifications from taking place and to put a stop those practices that put riders lives at risk.

Single vehicle approvals (SVA) will continue to be legal for those who wish to make modifications to their motorcycle. The majority of the suggestions made in the draft regulation are already in place in the UK at present.

Mandatory on board diagnostics (OBD)

Post PTW manufacturers producing new models are already compliant with the rules regarding OBD in the draft regulation (OBD stage(1)). This section of the draft regulation will not provide police with any details of the ride behaviour of motorcyclists; rather it is in place to purely warn the rider of serious malfunction to enable them to bring the motorcycle to a controlled stop.

The next stage of the legislation is a committee vote which is due to take place on October 17th though this is expected to be delayed to allow more time for negotiations. Following the Committee vote the report is likely to be voted by all MEP's in mid-November. If you wish to be kept informed of the progress of this legislation, please let me know

Best wishes

Yours sincerely

Derek Vaughan

Member of the European Parliament (WALES)
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