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Old 03-02-2006, 11:24 AM
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Default Oh boy oh boy, you'll love this.

http://news.yahoo.com/03022006/356/n...y-doctors.html
I wonder if they well refuse to treat immigrants that have payed fuck all to this country?
I wonder where the taxes go that us smokers pay cause its known that there is enough to pay for the NHS just from them alone.
Obese people, god help you if its glandular or something along those lines. I was looking at some NHS website a while back and it figured i was obese. I was in hospital yesterday and they told me that i wasnt even fat so who draws the lines on that then?
Ha! This country is all to ****.
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:49 AM
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cant open it rob??
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:56 AM
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Here it is

Almost 40 per cent of doctors believe NHS healthcare should be rationed, with smokers and the obese among those denied treatment.

And almost all - 96 per cent - want an open debate on the issue of denying some treatments to patients with an unhealthy lifestyle.

Last year the Government's treatment watchdog, NICE, said that patients could be denied treatment if lifestyle factors would make it ineffective or too costly.

And now a poll of 225 doctors for the British Medical Association found that 39 per cent agreed that action taken by primary care trusts in Suffolk to bar obese people from joint surgery to cut costs was justified.

It is believed that the risks of operating on obese patients are higher and the treatment may be less effective, with replacement joints wearing out sooner.

The same proportion said such a policy should be widened to exclude smokers and excessive drinkers from certain clinical procedures.

Dr Ikechuku Anya, a specialist registrar in public health medicine in Bristol, said: "Deciding how best to distribute the finite resources available to the NHS to meet the infinite demands made on it is very difficult.

"It is made even worse when, as is often the case, any attempt to discuss the financial implications of funding any treatment is drowned in a chorus of 'how callous, how heartless'."

Timothy Knight, a Warwickshire locum GP, said that rationing was a political matter. He said: "GPs should remain patient advocates, independent of the Government."
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
cant open it rob??
Bugger, your right
I'll try again
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/03022006/35...y-doctors.html
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRobT309
http://news.yahoo.com/03022006/356/n...y-doctors.html
I wonder where the taxes go that us smokers pay cause its known that there is enough to pay for the NHS just from them alone.
Got a source to prove that?
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:55 PM
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this one recons smoking costs the nhs between 1.4 and 1.7 billion a year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/me...es/3756028.stm this one says the revenue from tobbacco is nearly 10billion a year http://www.the-tma.org.uk/page.aspx?page_id=42
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r30
this one recons smoking costs the nhs between 1.4 and 1.7 billion a year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/me...es/3756028.stm this one says the revenue from tobbacco is nearly 10billion a year http://www.the-tma.org.uk/page.aspx?page_id=42
Surely the cost of running the whole NHS must cost more than 10 billion a year to the treasury though?

Anyway, the whole refusal to treat smokers or the obese is a difficult one. They've paid their contributions through NI and obviously expect treatment.

On the other hand you can understand the frustration of medical staff who see finite resources being wasted on people who have no interest in changing aspects of their lifestyle that have caused or contributed to their illness in the first place.
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:23 PM
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A report published in 2002 said

Quote:
It says that by 2022, NHS spending will need to be between 154bn and 184bn, compared with 68bn now, taking up between 10.6% and 11.1% of national income, compared with 7.7% now.
http://society.guardian.co.uk/future...685774,00.html

So Rob's statement is entirely false.
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:54 PM
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I think it's very hypocritical of the govt to moan about the amount of money spent on folk who live an unhealthy lifestyle when their own food dept. advocates putting chemicals/salt/sugar in food etc

and if smoking costs the NHS so much why don't they just ban it? (answer - 1. because they'd lose a fortune in taxes. 2. cos they'd lose a fortune in 'donations' from the tobacco industry)

and why extend pub opening times if they don't want folk to drink as much

also when there's a shortage of doctors - why are there so few places available at medical schools?

and why do nurses have to train at college? my mother was trained in a teaching hospital, on the ward, and nurses were better trained for it! Also the student nurses made up the numbers so there were more nurses on the wards


Thatcher started the NHS rot and Blair is continuing it
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abb
A report published in 2002 said



http://society.guardian.co.uk/future...685774,00.html

So Rob's statement is entirely false.
Read R30's reply, my statement isnt entirely false. If it is then so be it but i still pay national insurance, taxes so on so forth. i pay taxes on all the food i eat, on the power i use blah blah blah. If as a smoker i end up not entitled to NHS treatment do also have the option of not paying national insurance, taxes etc? Well i be able to buy stuff tax free as im not entitled to anything my taxes pay for? Say they ban smoking, who do you think is going to pick up the shortfall? Drinking alcohol, well that causes loads of diseases, depression, violence so on so forth according to the goverment. Bet they love the taxes coming off it though. Ha! then to top it off you have the likes of my Dad who smokes and drank a lot yet fought for this country, payed taxes etc all his life yet is not entitled to a full pension and now may lose his rights to health care yet an illegal immigrant is basically payed and looked after for coming here.
The way this country is heading makes me wanna fucking puke and anyone who can condone it is a bigger fool than i ever imagined. Imagine if they turn to you in a few years time after a motorbike accident and say tough **** mate, you knew the risks. Bet attitudes well change then huh
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doro
I think it's very hypocritical of the govt to moan about the amount of money spent on folk who live an unhealthy lifestyle when their own food dept. advocates putting chemicals/salt/sugar in food etc

and if smoking costs the NHS so much why don't they just ban it? (answer - 1. because they'd lose a fortune in taxes. 2. cos they'd lose a fortune in 'donations' from the tobacco industry)

and why extend pub opening times if they don't want folk to drink as much

also when there's a shortage of doctors - why are there so few places available at medical schools?

and why do nurses have to train at college? my mother was trained in a teaching hospital, on the ward, and nurses were better trained for it! Also the student nurses made up the numbers so there were more nurses on the wards


Thatcher started the NHS rot and Blair is continuing it

Ban McDonalds first, ban smoking, ban living in the city, ban non GM foods ban petrol, ban beer.

then get the government to tell us how they will fund the NHS.
Knowing that pack o twats tho they'd just say the spending would'nt be as high.
We'd be fucked if we had a road accident then.


Ooh ban roads they'd say.
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:55 PM
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Its not the government who is suggesting this. Its a (small scale) poll that shows that a minority of doctors questioned think that some treatments should be barred to smokers and the obese.

All the majority could agree upon was that there should be an open debate on the issue of denying some treatments to patients with an unhealthy lifestyle.

Treatment isnt going to be denied because you have smoked or have been obese. Rather that before being treated you should stop smoking, drinking to excess or lose weight if it is going to have a bearing on the success of the procedure.

Thats entirely sensible. Why should medical care in other areas be affected because a heavy smoker receives treatment for a smoking related illness and then undoes that by selfishly continuing to smoke? Or someone obese through overeating refusing to change their diet and destroying their new hip as soon as they receive it?
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:00 PM
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not sure wether this has come up, but seeing as a lot of people consider motorcycling to be dangerous, as is smoking , drinking etc, does that mean if we have a spill and have to be treated in hospital, then go out on the bike again we are not going to get treatment if we come off again, seeing as we are continuing our "unhealthy lifestyle"?
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erogenous Jones
Its not the government who is suggesting this. Its a (small scale) poll that shows that a minority of doctors questioned think that some treatments should be barred to smokers and the obese.

All the majority could agree upon was that there should be an open debate on the issue of denying some treatments to patients with an unhealthy lifestyle.

Treatment isnt going to be denied because you have smoked or have been obese. Rather that before being treated you should stop smoking, drinking to excess or lose weight if it is going to have a bearing on the success of the procedure.

Thats entirely sensible. Why should medical care in other areas be affected because a heavy smoker receives treatment for a smoking related illness and then undoes that by selfishly continuing to smoke? Or someone obese through overeating refusing to change their diet and destroying their new hip as soon as they receive it?
you miss the point the revenue from smoking more than makes up for what it costs the nhs to treat smokers illnesses so in a way they should get priority they paid more in, people also forget one of the biggest drains on the nhs is that we live longer http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3958495.stm

Last edited by r30; 03-02-2006 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:26 PM
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i reckon this cpuntry is dying, so should we save it
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:37 PM
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i reckon this cpuntry is dying, so should we save it
Is that why you are queen of your own kantry... lol
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r30
you miss the point the revenue from smoking more than makes up for what it costs the nhs to treat smokers illnesses so in a way they should get priority they paid more in, people also forget one of the biggest drains on the nhs is that we live longer http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3958495.stm
But how much of the 10 billion raised in tax on tobacco is spent on the NHS? I'd be surprised if it matches the 1.4-1.7 billion a year that smoking related illness costs the NHS in England alone. The majority of it is going to be spent on other major areas like defence, the social welfare budget etc, just the same as other major revenue sources like fuel duty. To claim smokers should have priority is as fatuous as saying high mileage riders/drivers should have priority because they contribute more through the petrol they buy.

You've touched upon the real problem with you second point. The NHS is suffering because the population it serves now is far different from that it was set up to support in the 1940s. We are living longer (and requiring more healthcare as a consequence) and the birth rate is falling. The country cannot afford to continue as it is (unless you fancy income tax rates and NI contributions going through the roof) and so the best uses of resources must be found.
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:38 PM
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yeah EJ it might be the doctors who are saying it - but they can't refuse treatment - it's against the hypocratic oath - it will be up to the govt to defend them

what I'm saying is they are targeting the wrong people - it's the govt who encourage unhealthy living so they should be made to pay the price

my own personal view is that people who smoke (for example) should be allowed to do so with impunity - and if they need health care - then they should have to pay for it - ie the govt says 'smoking is bad for you so if it makes you ill it's your own fault'

my problem is that the govt is being hypocritical about it

e.g. saying stuff like 'eat less salt' whilst allowing food processing giants to fill our food with the stuff! (and not be honest about it)



anyway we already have to pay for any emergency treatment we get after an RTA - ambulance, x-rays etc


I don't like nanny states - but I do agree that if you put your health at risk then you should pay for it
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erogenous Jones
You've touched upon the real problem with you second point. The NHS is suffering because the population it serves now is far different from that it was set up to support in the 1940s. We are living longer (and requiring more healthcare as a consequence) and the birth rate is falling. The country cannot afford to continue as it is (unless you fancy income tax rates and NI contributions going through the roof) and so the best uses of resources must be found.
You forgot to mention that there are less tax-payers not only because of the birthrate falling but also because of large scale unemployment - much of which is concealed under the guise of sending people on 'training courses' or letting people go to university for 3 years to learn something they could learn on the job. so they are not paying any taxes and the taxes we pay are going to support them ( in convoluted ways) so there is bugger all left for the NHS, which by the way wastes a lot of its money on fancy computer systems that don't work, and more and more layers of management who know nothing about healthcare but a helluva lot about extracting large salaries and even larger cars from their employers!
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BikerGran
... the NHS, which by the way wastes a lot of its money on fancy computer systems that don't work, and more and more layers of management who know nothing about healthcare but a helluva lot about extracting large salaries and even larger cars from their employers!
Absolutely. And another area that falls under "best use of resources". I'm not even going to get started on the management heavy structure of the whole bloody thing cos its Friday afternoon.
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Old 03-02-2006, 05:12 PM
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Why can't we have a system where we can "opt out" of the NHs and stop paying into it, and fund our own private health insurance instead. Seems to me that it would solve all sorts of problems, and at least that way if we pay privately no kant is gonna tell us that we won't get treated because we had an extra facking doughnut last week...and a nice rollup after it!!
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Old 03-02-2006, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doro
yeah EJ it might be the doctors who are saying it - but they can't refuse treatment - it's against the hypocratic oath - it will be up to the govt to defend them

what I'm saying is they are targeting the wrong people - it's the govt who encourage unhealthy living so they should be made to pay the price

my own personal view is that people who smoke (for example) should be allowed to do so with impunity - and if they need health care - then they should have to pay for it - ie the govt says 'smoking is bad for you so if it makes you ill it's your own fault'

my problem is that the govt is being hypocritical about it

e.g. saying stuff like 'eat less salt' whilst allowing food processing giants to fill our food with the stuff! (and not be honest about it)



anyway we already have to pay for any emergency treatment we get after an RTA - ambulance, x-rays etc


I don't like nanny states - but I do agree that if you put your health at risk then you should pay for it
You mean like motorbike riders who could be in safe cars but refuse as its fun and they enjoy riding a motorbike. What about Sports injuries? What about climbing etc. What about the people who are obese because they have glandular problems or phsycological problems? People who try and commit suicide and the likes? Shouldnt they pay more for being a burden? What about Drinkers, wow, now theres a burden. The list goes on and on. Ha! The only way you'll get health care at this rate is if your bloody healthy and take no risks. Fuckin great innit, lets have a master race. God help the asians that get anemia in this country cause of lack of sun. They should have stayed where it was sunny shouldnt they
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Old 03-02-2006, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRobT309
You mean like motorbike riders who could be in safe cars but refuse as its fun and they enjoy riding a motorbike. What about Sports injuries? What about climbing etc. What about the people who are obese because they have glandular problems or phsycological problems? People who try and commit suicide and the likes? Shouldnt they pay more for being a burden? What about Drinkers, wow, now theres a burden. The list goes on and on. Ha! The only way you'll get health care at this rate is if your bloody healthy and take no risks. Fuckin great innit, lets have a master race. God help the asians that get anemia in this country cause of lack of sun. They should have stayed where it was sunny shouldnt they
Well thats strange. The reply is here but its not showing sort of thing. Had terrible trouble getting back on here. pain in the bloody arse it is.
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