100% Biker & Trike Magazine Forums

Go Back   100% Biker & Trike Magazine Forums > 100% Biker > The Workshop

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:00 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default Lockheed Brakes.

This may generate a bit of discussion, after building the Trident last year, and having some trouble with the brakes not being man enough by my standards,

Twin Lockheed on the front and having to find a suitable sized master cylinder to get the ratio somewhere near what it should be IE 23-1, but due to needing a large master cylinder for the hydraulic clutch I ended up with a pair of 19mm radials which gave a ratio of 18-1 so not ideal, but there is some feel the front and they don't lock up...bonus!

However the rear is just s single Lockheed unit, and I originally had Japanese 14 mm master cylinder which just didn't seem to be able to apply enough force to even slow down, then went to a 16mm MC with little improvement, so decided to fit a Harley type with a 3/4"/19mm bore, and this still doesn't seem to make much difference, it should actually feel very wooden and just lock up but it doesn't with a ratio of just 9-3.

So I am now thinking of fitting another Lockheed calliper to the rear in an effort to bring the ratio up to the same as the front, so whats your take on this? all constructive input welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-03-2018, 06:53 AM
Friar Tuck's Avatar
Friar Tuck Friar Tuck is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Brothertoft, Lincolngrad!
Posts: 12,252
Default

Locheed Martin make bloody good ejector seats....
__________________
Does my belly look big in this?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-03-2018, 10:04 AM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Well, I did say constructive, should have known better
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-03-2018, 10:50 AM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Just been doing some more research and found that some seem to think a ratio of 14:1 to 12:1. is more desirable, which is a lot closer to mine...just that mine don't seem to work well.

There is also the ratio of the disc size to wheel size to take into consideration, along with the leaver ratio.....my head is starting to hurt.

Last edited by Tricky-Dicky; 08-03-2018 at 11:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-03-2018, 07:50 PM
harry's Avatar
harry harry is offline
Techno Guru! He's Good! He Knows Everyfink!
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Taunton
Posts: 3,478
Default

Hi Tricky, you've made a common mistake of thinking a bigger bore master cylinder gives more braking effort.
Thinking that it moves more fluid would increase braking effort.

But its the other way round a smaller M/cyl means the pedal pressure multiplied by the leverage ratio is applied to a smaller piston.

Because the smaller piston has the same force applied to a smaller area means the fluid pressure is higher which gives more brake effort. But the pedal/lever moves further.

Hope this helps.
__________________
si is does non opportunus vos postulo a maior pango
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-03-2018, 08:04 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Thanks for the reply Harry, I do know that a lager master cylinder will in effect reduce the braking effort, that's the crux of the problem, I know what the effective ratios should be but my brakes are not behaving as expected that the problem.

Originally I was using the 14 mm MC which should have given good braking effort at the expense of leaver travel, but this just resulted in feeble braking, nex was the 17mm MC which did not change anything, then came the 19mm radial which should have made things feel wooden and cause lock up...but no, it did improve the braking but not as much as I had hoped, I am using twin Lockheed calipers with a piston diameter of 41mm,
the back is just the same despite a rebuilt caliper, so I am now thinking of adding an extra caliper to reduce the effects of the larger Harley MC, but in general its not behaving as expected, the only other thing I can think of is to rebuild all the calipers with new seals etc, and attack the discs with a sander, although only one disc has signs of the original plated finish.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-03-2018, 06:08 AM
Friar Tuck's Avatar
Friar Tuck Friar Tuck is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Brothertoft, Lincolngrad!
Posts: 12,252
Default

would opting for a twinpot or threepot caliper be any better rather than a bigger master cylinder? Or just renew the standard system? I suppose it depends on the bhp output at the rear wheel? If you've upped the power output then I can understand the need to increase the braking capacity. but if you've retained the original power output surely just rejuvinating the original set up would suffice? I know nothing about braking systems hence my original glib remark...sorry about that...
__________________
Does my belly look big in this?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-03-2018, 10:16 AM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Well, the whole problem is that the std brakes are just not good enough Tuck, the std callipers are twin pot anyway, I have looked at trying to find some jap callipers that wouldn't take too much to fit, but it's the fronts that make it difficult without messing with the original mountings.

The std setup, in theory, should be well capable but they are just not, I rebuilt one caliper and now I think I'll just do the other two and go from there, I fitted new pads too, my main consideration is that the wife loves to be on the bike and it just doesn't feel there is enough braking two up.

It's not like I ride fast just cruise, the bike is std power, so I just can't understand why it feels so inadequate, never had this before, and i have uprated the brakes on lots of bikes and cars.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-03-2018, 08:24 PM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

Hi tricky, what brake lines have you got on the bike?
Stainless braided lines and stainless banjo bolts make a big difference to braking power.

For more stopping power upfront the 4 pot Tokico calipers off the GSXR750 were much more powerful than the 4 pots on the Zephyr 1100 and the ZZR1100.
You can grind off the Tokico lettering to make it look more in keeping.

I am looking for 6 pot calipers of the early GSXR1000 because they bolt straight on my Kwak with simple bolt sleeves.

Last edited by HOS; 09-03-2018 at 08:25 PM. Reason: speeling
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:48 AM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Hi HOS, I allways use braided SS lines, was thinking of using some jap calipers but fitting most types will require removing or changing the original Triumph fork mounts because of the disc size which I don't want to do, so I am going to pull all the original calipers and renew the seals and check them internally and go from there.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-03-2018, 09:15 AM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

A set of new seals and new fluid won't do it any harm.
Are there any better pads you can use? Have you tried different pad materials?
With small dia solid discs I suppose the amount of braking is going to be limited.
I'm not knowledgeable about British bikes Tricky.
Ive had Jap bikes all my life with only two exceptions.
My Triumph Trident 900 was one of the early Hinckley Triumphs and
I had a Buell 1200S for a short while.

Last edited by HOS; 12-03-2018 at 05:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-03-2018, 09:25 AM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

I had to improve the braking on my supercharged Busa.
This was achieved by using some savage looking Italian wave discs which were like ripsaw blades.
I fitted Earls brake lines with one line from mc to each caliper rather than use a splitter.. I use stainless everything apart from the copper washers.
Then I fitted HH sintered pads which are fairly abrasive.
Combining those with the two standard 6 pot Tokico calipers it was much better than stock.
This was my fix, so I don't know if there's anything you can use or gain from that.

I had shortie levers on the bars. Two finger braking was fine for me then, but maybe not now. You need strong hands. The heavy duty clutch caused some issues initially when sat in traffic, but I changed my riding style to putting the bike in Neutral in those situations.

I've fitted shortie levers on the Zeph so I need to get my grip strength back up again.

Last edited by HOS; 12-03-2018 at 05:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-03-2018, 05:29 PM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

Its interesting that so many ultra fast Jap and Italian bikes have Brembo calipers fitted as standard now. I guess because they are still the best.

Radial brakes are where the art of performance is now.
To achieve better braking than the OE Tokico six pots on the big tubster Busa,
owners fitted the front forks from the later model GSXR1000 which has radial brakes using 4 pot calipers which give better braking. I hope they would have uprated the spring weights at the same time.
The Gen2 fattybusa is fitted with radial Brembo's too.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-03-2018, 07:03 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

I have radial master cylinders for front and clutch but Harley MC on the rear, but I wouldn't say that fitting radial MC has made any big difference.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19-03-2018, 06:28 PM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

I've been thinking about the braking issue.
Found a brembo conversion for the front.
https://triumphbonneville.org/brembo...brake-upgrade/
Could try and find some used parts.

But looking at it, the brembo conversion has a simple looking flat adaptor plate.
If you made you own adaptor plate then that could open up a wider choice of front calipers. But also you could use metric calipers.
I know that doesn't help with the rear brake being weak.
Could you please post a photo of the rear disc brake assembly? Then we can all get our heads around it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 19-03-2018, 06:42 PM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

Scrub my idea for front calipers because they will not fit your fork legs.

But brembo calipers off the newer triumph might be made to fit. The bolts on the newer brembo calipers are facing towards the wheel hub. So by making a 90deg angle bracket between the existing fork cleats it might be doable. In theory.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 19-03-2018, 07:19 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Thanks, but I have looked into it and because of the way most modern calipers mountings are configured, it practically impossible to make a bracket up that would fit the standard discs, if you could find much bigger discs that had a chance of fitting the triumph hob it could work but I don't hold out much hope.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 20-03-2018, 07:32 AM
Friar Tuck's Avatar
Friar Tuck Friar Tuck is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Brothertoft, Lincolngrad!
Posts: 12,252
Default

Hob? Would that be gas or electric?
__________________
Does my belly look big in this?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 20-03-2018, 10:35 AM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

At that age gas mate
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 20-03-2018, 11:01 AM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
Thanks, but I have looked into it and because of the way most modern calipers mountings are configured, it practically impossible to make a bracket up that would fit the standard discs, if you could find much bigger discs that had a chance of fitting the triumph hob it could work but I don't hold out much hope.
Would you be happy for me to have a look and see what I can find?
I just need the current disc diameter.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 20-03-2018, 12:18 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Thanks, mate that would be appreciated, but I think the main problem would be the size of the disc centres as the std is tiny and the disc diameter is about 10" i will go and have a measure up later and let you know.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 20-03-2018, 12:58 PM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky-Dicky View Post
Thanks, mate that would be appreciated, but I think the main problem would be the size of the disc centres as the std is tiny and the disc diameter is about 10" i will go and have a measure up later and let you know.
I'll wait to hear from you
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 23-03-2018, 02:42 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

Measured the discs up today 10" OD centre 67mm ID and the five bolts are approx 86mm centers, the main trouble would be finding larger discs with a suitable ID for the bolts, along with trying to index them, and the standard offset of the discs is quite high at around 22mm but could be accounted for with brackets, I am going to change all the seals and see if this helps, although I cant really see it unless one piston is stuck which I am pretty sure its not.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 24-03-2018, 05:21 AM
Friar Tuck's Avatar
Friar Tuck Friar Tuck is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Brothertoft, Lincolngrad!
Posts: 12,252
Default

You know what your problem is...you need a new bike....
__________________
Does my belly look big in this?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 24-03-2018, 06:58 PM
Tricky-Dicky Tricky-Dicky is offline
Chatter Box
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 263
Default

I suspect that will be the case after this year, not sure how long my back and kidneys will hold out, and I have a couple of springs under my seat, which is more than the misses gets
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 25-03-2018, 02:27 PM
HOS HOS is offline
Been out, but rather stay in!
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: England
Posts: 1,406
Default

Hi tricky, I will have a look but I may struggle to find a larger disc that will fit your hub arrangement.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.