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Old 06-11-2013, 06:35 PM
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Default shipyard closures

I think it is a sad day when they announce the loss of so many jobs in Portsmouth, It's bad enough to lose the jobs but tonight I watched the Prime minister say on TV that if Scotland got independence there would be no warships built for Britain..However all polititions claim the closure of Portsmouth shipyard is just good business because it is cheaper to build ships in Scotland and the Scots have more ability and skills to build the ships..

Am I over suspicious or do the polititians think everyone is gullible..

Is the Prime minister saying that if Scotland gets independence the British government will no longer deal with them, in spite of the Scots expertise, Is he saying that if Scotland gets independence he will re-open the portsmouth shipyard in spite of the extra cost and lower standard of expertise.

So if I'm not being over suspicious why is the government refusing to sign the contracts to build new warships until after the vote for an independent Scotland.

I think the Prime minister has insulted both the Scots and the English in one badly thought out speech.

The more I learn about politics the less I like our government.

John.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:05 PM
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Think your onto something there. The new contracts are not being finalised until after the referendum. Says a lot that.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:39 PM
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It doesn't matter when they sign the contracts, the government says (at this time) that Scotland can do a better job at a cheaper rate, and we have heard for years that the government gets the best value for the taxpayers money, so I have to wonder why they need to hold out until after the referendum..Now having given it a few minutes more thought, are they thinking about having the new warships built off shore, somewhere cheap like maybe China, or India...

If that is the case then the whole concept of 'we have to join the EU because otherwise we will lose a market for our goods and services' doesn't make any sense at all.

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Old 06-11-2013, 11:13 PM
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Think the idea is to have some sway over the referendum. The argument has been that if Scotland come out of the UK, then the contracts for the UK military will stay within the UK. In the event of independence, they have likened military contracts being about as likely in Scotland as they would be in Spain. Ie not much hope. I'm not a fan of the independence vote so I can see their point.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:47 PM
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Personally I think they are more concerned with having all the taxes from North Sea oil going to the people of Scotland..and we don't have any military secrets that we haven't already sold to the highest bidder, I seem to remember one of the problems with the Falklands war was that our anti missile systems recognised the argy missiles as friendly because we had sold them..

I think the people of Scotland are more likely to get independence when the oil has run out..

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Old 07-11-2013, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by John Hopkins View Post
Personally I think they are more concerned with having all the taxes from North Sea oil going to the people of Scotland..and we don't have any military secrets that we haven't already sold to the highest bidder, I seem to remember one of the problems with the Falklands war was that our anti missile systems recognised the argy missiles as friendly because we had sold them..

I think the people of Scotland are more likely to get independence when the oil has run out..

John.
Seriously does feckin slitty eyes salmond really think all these companies will hand over Increased taxes to a scottish government...he is a fuckin clown none of his or his wank stains of a party have any idea off what or how to run a country.

What happens to the currency we use ...ahhhh it will be ok the Bank of England will sort it out.
What will happen to our armed forces ...ahhh its ok we will still have an army.
Will we still be part of EU or NATO ......ahhh yes because they need us and want us.
What about the benfits system pensions etc....ahhh its ok we will be handed back millions from the exchequer to pay for it all.
What will happen to our naval bases Holy Loch etc.....ahhh they will be shut.
What about English companies saying F*ck you England for the English....ahhhhh that will never happen they need us.

They have not one shred of evidence or proof that they can deliver all this.

These ploiticians are a bigger feckin threat than some of the rag heads running about. They are inept incompetent and bloody dangerous in their stupidity.

It may not be politically correct in this day and age to say yes I am a Royalist / Loyalist who supports the union. The day and hour these pricks get into power I for one will be looking at getting to fuck out of here.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kidhaf View Post
Seriously does feckin slitty eyes salmond really think all these companies will hand over Increased taxes to a scottish government...he is a fuckin clown none of his or his wank stains of a party have any idea off what or how to run a country.

What happens to the currency we use ...ahhhh it will be ok the Bank of England will sort it out.
What will happen to our armed forces ...ahhh its ok we will still have an army.
Will we still be part of EU or NATO ......ahhh yes because they need us and want us.
What about the benfits system pensions etc....ahhh its ok we will be handed back millions from the exchequer to pay for it all.
What will happen to our naval bases Holy Loch etc.....ahhh they will be shut.
What about English companies saying F*ck you England for the English....ahhhhh that will never happen they need us.

They have not one shred of evidence or proof that they can deliver all this.

These ploiticians are a bigger feckin threat than some of the rag heads running about. They are inept incompetent and bloody dangerous in their stupidity.

It may not be politically correct in this day and age to say yes I am a Royalist / Loyalist who supports the union. The day and hour these pricks get into power I for one will be looking at getting to fuck out of here.
I agree with a lot of what you say..but polititions don't really run anything, sure they have ideas and make new laws, but it is the people in the background that aren't voted in that run the country..When a politition gets voted in he or she has no idea what the job entails, when they first move into that new office they have to be guided, someone even tells them what to say to the people, they are basically puppets or figureheads..

The thing I object to is the fact that these people think we are stupid enough to believe that we are making decisions for ourselves, advertising disguised as news, offering incentives, and now threats of massive job losses.

It is obvious that England does not want independence for Scotland and so it won't happen, but it annoys me that they make the offer and then weight the scales by turning the Scottish people against each other. If it was a genuine offer why not just say the people will decide on a certain date and leave it for the Scots to talk over and decide on that date.

It seems pretty clear that if Scotland gets independence it will have to stand on it's own feet, it won't be easy and yes, England will probably build it's own warships in England, Scotland will still have it's own shipyards, experience and labour force, and there is a whole world out there to work for, and don't think they won't buy..The Harrier jets were sold world wide, arms salesmen from Britain are selling our latest weapons wherever they can. Scotland will survive as a great nation whether they are part of the UK or independent, but they should be left alone to decide for themselves.

John.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:11 PM
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Build them on the Tyne again.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by John Hopkins View Post
Personally I think they are more concerned with having all the taxes from North Sea oil going to the people of Scotland..and we don't have any military secrets that we haven't already sold to the highest bidder, I seem to remember one of the problems with the Falklands war was that our anti missile systems recognised the argy missiles as friendly because we had sold them..

I think the people of Scotland are more likely to get independence when the oil has run out..

John.
Not entirely sure Scotland would get such a big % of the oil revenue. To many fingers in that pie. But yes we would be less likely to get an argument for independence when the oil dries up
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kidhaf View Post
Seriously does feckin slitty eyes salmond really think all these companies will hand over Increased taxes to a scottish government...he is a fuckin clown none of his or his wank stains of a party have any idea off what or how to run a country.

What happens to the currency we use ...ahhhh it will be ok the Bank of England will sort it out.
What will happen to our armed forces ...ahhh its ok we will still have an army.
Will we still be part of EU or NATO ......ahhh yes because they need us and want us.
What about the benfits system pensions etc....ahhh its ok we will be handed back millions from the exchequer to pay for it all.
What will happen to our naval bases Holy Loch etc.....ahhh they will be shut.
What about English companies saying F*ck you England for the English....ahhhhh that will never happen they need us.

They have not one shred of evidence or proof that they can deliver all this.

These ploiticians are a bigger feckin threat than some of the rag heads running about. They are inept incompetent and bloody dangerous in their stupidity.

It may not be politically correct in this day and age to say yes I am a Royalist / Loyalist who supports the union. The day and hour these pricks get into power I for one will be looking at getting to fuck out of here.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Scary there is so many unanswered questions this stage
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:16 PM
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Don't be surprised if Scottish shipyards are threatened, then Cameron comes to the "rescue"[cough cough] just before the referendum with a "bail-out-but-only-if-you-stay-in-UK".
Salmond doesn't seem to have thought a lot of things thru, but the one thing he should have really learned from the experience of the LibDems is the lengths Cammy will go to win a referendum that he never really wanted to hold in the first place.

Linked question for the masses. I admit I don't know much about engineering, but does Portsmouth really have to close? The world generates billionaires at an increasing rate and British products carry a premium prestige in many developing nations - so why doesn't Portsmouth move into the luxury yacht type industry instead of closing?
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:20 PM
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Don't be surprised if Scottish shipyards are threatened, then Cameron comes to the "rescue"[cough cough] just before the referendum with a "bail-out-but-only-if-you-stay-in-UK".
Salmond doesn't seem to have thought a lot of things thru, but the one thing he should have really learned from the experience of the LibDems is the lengths Cammy will go to win a referendum that he never really wanted to hold in the first place.

Linked question for the masses. I admit I don't know much about engineering, but does Portsmouth really have to close? The world generates billionaires at an increasing rate and British products carry a premium prestige in many developing nations - so why doesn't Portsmouth move into the luxury yacht type industry instead of closing?
Portsmouth isn't closing, just the money grabbing, exchequer robbing, bastards at BAE are closing their shipbuilding facility. Solely to preserve the premiums for the shareholders.
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Old 13-11-2013, 11:04 AM
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I predict Southhampton will be mothballed for 18mths. The governement will then announce a new contract for BAE who will re-employ people on new contracts (day 1 pay and benefits) thus reducing costs and making it "competitive".

BAE will tell the city they have saved loads so keeping share prices up and government will crow about saving English jobs etc etc. This will be even louder crowing in the event of a "yes" vote by Scotland
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Old 13-11-2013, 12:16 PM
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I should really keep my mouth shut I keep opening these cans of worms, but although I have no objections to very rich people, I hate to see them telling us that 'Britain has never had it so good' or 'because it is the right thing to do' and they manage to con so many people into trusting them that I get annoyed when they say 'we are all in this together' but they have 10% pay rises while we have pay freezes.

The latest one is there are two minimum pay scales..

The minimum wage which is about 6.19 per hour and the minimum livable wage which is about 7.49 per hour.

In order to help the people of Britain the goverment would like employers to pay the livable wage to their workers..

Great we all get more wages...

No we all come into the tax system and lose suplimentary income support and council tax rebates and rent support for being paid less than the livable wage..

The government collects more taxes, the small businesses get closer to the breadline or prices of everything go up and the councils collect more rates..

I'll go back to sleep now.

John.
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Old 13-11-2013, 07:36 PM
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There aren't many shipyards still active that can build Warships without serious investment in their infrastructure. This stinks of Political manoeuvring aimed at keeping Scotland within the UK. Ship building on the Clyde, with it's long and distinguished history is coming to an end and this is the first salvo on the road to closure.
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Old 13-11-2013, 11:02 PM
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I should really keep my mouth shut I keep opening these cans of worms, but although I have no objections to very rich people, I hate to see them telling us that 'Britain has never had it so good' or 'because it is the right thing to do' and they manage to con so many people into trusting them that I get annoyed when they say 'we are all in this together' but they have 10% pay rises while we have pay freezes.

The latest one is there are two minimum pay scales..

The minimum wage which is about 6.19 per hour and the minimum livable wage which is about 7.49 per hour.

In order to help the people of Britain the goverment would like employers to pay the livable wage to their workers..

Great we all get more wages...

No we all come into the tax system and lose suplimentary income support and council tax rebates and rent support for being paid less than the livable wage..

The government collects more taxes, the small businesses get closer to the breadline or prices of everything go up and the councils collect more rates..

I'll go back to sleep now.

John.
It's a very true you get nothing for nothing. And your right it would hit small businesses, hard. It was also hit read such as the care sector hard. A lot of these services are running close to the wire, having had no fee uplifts since many of them started up.
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Old 15-11-2013, 11:47 AM
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The other simple fact of life is, that the UK does not have it's warships built anywhere else, so if Scotland ceases to be part of the UK, then they have self-excluded from this venture.

The real sad bit is we end up with any old shite that BAE pump out, we really need new govt approved shipbuilders.

Brilliant opportunity awaits the like likes of the Tyne and Birkenhead. Unfortunately though, the build of submarines is sewn up by BAE in Barrow. We submariners may not be happy but BAE shareholders are.
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Old 15-11-2013, 12:02 PM
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The latest thing is that if Scotland votes for independance and is no longer part of the UK then the government will have to build their warships in England for security reasons..If they offer the tender to Scotland they have to offer it to the whole of Europe..

So as a matter of honour it would seem to me that as they have already said the work will go to Scotland they should sign the contracts before the referendum which will negate the need to offer to the rest of Europe..Anything else must be seen as influencing a free vote or coercion. certainly against the spirit of the freedoms that we have recently been sending our troops to fight for in other countries.

John.
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