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  #31  
Old 24-03-2009, 10:35 PM
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The Oz situation has just been given the fuel to steamroll any anti-biker (bikie...?!??) legislation thru as well, unfortunately.
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  #32  
Old 25-03-2009, 09:46 AM
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Yeah, saw that.
Its seems the police here have been given some pretty extensive powers, mainly as a knee jerk reaction to terrorism, and are prepared to mis-use them to target certain groups. In fact they were criticised the other day in Parliament for doing so. Obviously dealing with the police, is a run of the mill, annoyance for people in your position, but as a fairly long standing member, do you consider its getting worse?
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  #33  
Old 25-03-2009, 10:15 AM
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In most of Europe no, i breeze thru every time, travelling as a couple seems to help, though i wouldn't even bother trying Denmark or Finland right now.
The US asked a lot of questions, none directly about my club affiliation, more about what i was doing there, and making sure i was carrying no drugs. was travelling alone, which implies i'm not there to see the sights and get a tan. Not having a criminal record helped i think, though that particular safety net has fallen by the wayside now.
Australia, travelling alone again, put me thru the mill properly, same angle really, though they did quiz me about various patches on my jacket, which they'd not seen before, knew nothing about, and still don't. Photocopied all paperwork, addresses, and numbers i had for contacts over there. But i wouldn't try now, never in a million years.
The terrorist angle has given them powers that previously had been out of their reach, or hard to enact, but now they've got a full reign on doing as they like, under that banner, yes.
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  #34  
Old 26-03-2009, 09:58 AM
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Interesting to see what is happening in other countries, as it does give some indication as to what our authorities may be considering. You can guarantee that there is some pencil neck within our security and police forces looking to see what ideas he can steal to earn himself brownie points here.

Here in the UK the attitude among the majority of bikers is one of "I am not a back patch club member so it is nothing to do with me". History proves that discrimination of a minority leads to widespread descrimination in a very short time.

Look what happened at the Bulldog last year. The police action was instigated by one cop. Assistant Chief Constable Holland of the Warwickshire Constabulary. The police operation went ahead despite local protests from trades people. This was harrassment on a grand scale motivated by spite and political pressure. That political pressure has not gone away. As yet there has been no official police statement as to what they intend to do at any of this years events. (None that I have seen yet anyway).

Joe public is or was once again force fed a media hyped stereo typical image of bikers. NOT just back patch club members, but everybody attending the Bulldog was liable to be stopped and searched, photographed and generally hassled.

That is now history, but just take a moment to think about the long term implications of that police operation. For those people like myself, that felt great anger at the way I was treated by the police, there WAS one legal and official means of registering your feelings. IE: Official complaint to the police. I did a lot of research at the time. I felt the need to do something.

When you make an official complaint about the police in general or an individual officer, you are given a choice of the matter being dealt with "In house" or formally. If you go the route of "In house", nothing is ever going to happen as the police will cover their own arse. If you go the "Formal" route, another force has to investigate the complaint.

OK, so that immediately gives the likes of MAG a weapon to use against the police. If everybody that got stopped at the Bulldog had made an official complaint and demanded formal investigation, the whole system would have ground to a halt. The cops knew that was never going to happen as bikers generally just take what the government throws at us, there are of course exceptions to that.

On an individual level, I thought long and hard about making an official complaint. I had been stopped twice on my way to the Bulldog, within twenty minutes of the first stop I was stopped again. First time I had to produce documents etc etc and was on the wrong end of a cop having a bad day.

Second time I was stopped and made to get out of the van. I was searched, had to give personal details, was photographed by the van's registration plate, face on and profile. The van was searched and I thought all was ok until they found my patch. Then EVERYTHING was taken out of the van and put through an xray machine. Bags were opened etc etc. Boy was I pissed at that. All the time this was going on, I was surrounded by armed cops. I was treeated like I was a major criminal.

I wanted to do something to register my anger. However, I had been photographed and all my details had been logged. So if I make a complaint, it is not rocket science for the cops to tie up my being stopped with the fact that I am a prospect for a back patch club and I am making an official complaint.

Call me paranoid if you like, but how much attention would my club have got had I made the complaint. Try proving that the cops are harrassing you or your friends unlawfully. While you may like the idea of giving the cop that stops you a fat lip, you would be just playing into their hands by doing so.

You now also have to think about what the cops will do if you exercise your legal rights. Remember the cops are always backed by the legal system and the government.

What has been happening in other countries will at some time arrive here. The same powers the cops use to harrass back patch clubs will be used against all and any individual biker.

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  #35  
Old 26-03-2009, 12:41 PM
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The Oz situation has just been given the fuel to steamroll any anti-biker (bikie...?!??) legislation thru as well, unfortunately.
Is it Anti biker or Anti Club. ?

Clubs are easy to target, individuals not so easy.

To target Bikers/motorcyclists would alienate a culture and would have implications on civil liberties, but to target Clubs will be seen as doing it for the good of the public. And will be spun as to protect the ordinary motorcyclist, As well as members of the public.
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  #36  
Old 26-03-2009, 05:15 PM
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Not just bikers fallimng foul of legislation meant to fight terrorism. You wouldn't believe this if told it in a pub.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2...t_police_claim

Took place on a lake 100 yards from my house and 10 yards from where the mohawks had a show last year.
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  #37  
Old 26-03-2009, 07:48 PM
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I think that's very interesting what you have got to say there Chopper. I agree that it is not acceptable to target people for membership of a club, unless that organisation is outlawed because it is proven in court to have acted as an organisation, to further terrorist or criminal activities. Circumstantial evidence that some of its members have criminal records or are involved in those activities, is not sufficient justification to take action against any member of the club, purely for being a member. I think that the organisers of the major events should put their weight behind attempts to force the police to justify their actions, as the way they went about it by contacting and scaring landowners and venue owners with hearsay evidence, was reprehensible. If necessary event organisers need to take legal action against venue owners who pull the rug at the last minute, in response to police pressure. The prospect of punitive financial award being made against their business as a result of their failure to abide by a contract may be enough to make them think twice about the validity of the police advice, especially if the event has a long standing record of being well run with no trouble.
I can see why you have passed pretty much unhindered through Europe Taff. Certainly here in France, there are very few establishments that wouldn't welcome bikers, although the awareness of motorcycle clubs is next to zero, and although I imagine an HA patch would be of passing interest, as most clubs here are backpatch in the sense that is where the patch is worn, the public can't distinguish.
It may be worth considering publicising, either by means of flyers at events, or websites, how to officially complain if you are harassed unjustifiably by the police en route to an event. Imagine if the police mounted a similar operation this year at the Bulldog, but with every pre-booked tickets sent out, there was information about how to make an official complaint, record the officers involved's details etc. and this was also widely publicised on site. I wonder how many complaints the police would have received by 2 weeks after the event? Enough to swamp them I'd guess.
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  #38  
Old 07-04-2010, 07:06 PM
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this is no suprise if youve ever spent anytime in america you no that the concept of it being the land of the free is utter bollox
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  #39  
Old 08-04-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
On an individual level, I thought long and hard about making an official complaint. I had been stopped twice on my way to the Bulldog, within twenty minutes of the first stop I was stopped again.

I wanted to do something to register my anger. However, I had been photographed and all my details had been logged. So if I make a complaint, it is not rocket science for the cops to tie up my being stopped with the fact that I am a prospect for a back patch club and I am making an official complaint.

Call me paranoid if you like, but how much attention would my club have got had I made the complaint. Try proving that the cops are harrassing you or your friends unlawfully.

You now also have to think about what the cops will do if you exercise your legal rights. Remember the cops are always backed by the legal system and the government.


Chopper.
That is exactly what the cops are banking on, and it is working.

For your own reasons, you decided not to complain, but you suggested that MAG should "take it up", so how many others took the same option ? 100s, 1000s, it just puts more power in the cops hands for the next time, the official attitude will be that " we stopped 15,000 people and only got 150 complaints, so the public must be in support of what we are doing"

Too many bikers in this country are their own worst enemy, take the protest in Wales last year, half the people who turned out to protest about harrassment of bikers in Snowdonia, had illegal pipes , small plates etc, how many back patch clubs attended that, very few, because most took the attitude that it was only ' power rangers ' that were having problems.

The only way to fight the laws already being introduced in the states and Oz, happening here, will be for everyone to stand up and be counted.
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  #40  
Old 08-04-2010, 08:47 AM
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Second time I was stopped and made to get out of the van. I was searched, had to give personal details, was photographed by the van's registration plate, face on and profile. The van was searched and I thought all was ok until they found my patch. Then EVERYTHING was taken out of the van and put through an xray machine. Bags were opened etc etc. Boy was I pissed at that. All the time this was going on, I was surrounded by armed cops. I was treated like I was a major criminal.
The police who stopped you broke the law.
Under the powers of section 60, under which they claimed to be operating, they have no right whatsoever to photograph you. They have no right to ask for personal details, unless you are the driver of a vehicle, in which case only the usual pull details need be given. They are authorised to search for weapons only, not to look at or read any paperwork, open any wallets, notebooks, or diaries.
Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight, but you were entitled to ask for written details of the search, officer's name, station, reason for search, actually far more than he's entitled to know about you, and to see the paperwork/authority for the search, to see that it's (very limited) active time is still valid. This info is going on our website before this year's Bulldog Bash. We can inconvenience them, as much as they do us.
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  #41  
Old 08-04-2010, 11:42 AM
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Interesting points about the Bulldog. I had been on the site since the Tuesday and left the site at least once a day in the pick up. On the Friday I got a pull. Same as chopper went through everything, they asked if they could take picture of my club shirt, I asked why, they couldnt/wouldnt answer so I said no.
The stop paperwork I ( I cant exactly remember if I signed or not) but said I would send off for my details under freedom of information act.
Now once i contacted Wawks old bill via e-mail I got a letter asking for copy's of two forms of ID and 10 to cover admin. I waited a good few weeks and they sent me through all my details which included:-
Photo of pick up
Photo of me getting out of pick up
Sheet of paper, with where I worked, my phone number, position within club etc.

Now for anyone that thinks OK fare enough, I'm not in a back patch club, its a side patch club, I dont have a criminal record, Ive got a few points on my licence and thats it, I pay my tax's etc etc
Aint it nice to be treated like a suspected terrorist just for attending a motorcycle event?
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  #42  
Old 08-04-2010, 11:57 AM
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Not just motorcycle events for me. Every time I travel to Europe, I get pulled by Customs, questioned on where I'm going/where I've been (and have to prove it), where I've stayed (and, again, have to prove it), who I've visited, and get the car pulled apart and searched. I know exactly why.
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  #43  
Old 08-04-2010, 02:25 PM
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Not just motorcycle events for me. Every time I travel to Europe, I get pulled by Customs, questioned on where I'm going/where I've been (and have to prove it), where I've stayed (and, again, have to prove it), who I've visited, and get the car pulled apart and searched. I know exactly why.
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  #44  
Old 08-04-2010, 02:59 PM
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DUH no its coz she is "Bloo"
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  #45  
Old 08-04-2010, 03:47 PM
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Got nicked a few weeks ago. In the station was asked 'Do you belong to any clubs or associations' what type I asked ' you know bike gangs/clubs' Other copper chips in with 'No hes not, not that thats going to matter soon, they won't be showing patches long' I was quite surprised.
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  #46  
Old 08-04-2010, 04:03 PM
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I cant see how they can do it?

surely if they ban wearing of patches then I would look at whats involved in releasing a clothing line thats only available to selected people

if your clothing line is the " biker club " and its branded across the back of your jacket, then what can they do?

its just product branding

try telling bench, nike and all the other chavvy brands that they cant have big logos on the back of their jackets!

If it went through I would love to see a test case in court against football shirts, biggest area of violence, and all about the clothing that they wear!

wonder how the football authorities would see it, huge losses of revenue and public outcry, whats the difference between the 2?
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  #47  
Old 08-04-2010, 04:10 PM
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And back in the real world.


They can do whatever they want because no one has the balls to stand up any more (not this maybe but in general) The apathy party will get the most votes yet again.

Thats why I like the French. If they don't like the law they hit the streets and TELL the government what they want.
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  #48  
Old 08-04-2010, 06:18 PM
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I cant see how they can do it?


I would love to see a test case in court against football shirts, biggest area of violence, and all about the clothing that they wear!

?
The people responsible for football violence nowadays, would not be seen dead in a football shirt, nor will you find them with scarves, badges or patches.
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  #49  
Old 08-04-2010, 06:46 PM
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This info is going on our website before this year's Bulldog Bash. We can inconvenience them, as much as they do us.
That would be good im a photographer and have had several collegues that have been stopped when shooting in public with the copper citing the new terror stop and search law as a reason. Even tho he knows its bollox and so do we they still seem to do it.
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  #50  
Old 08-04-2010, 07:18 PM
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That would be good im a photographer and have had several collegues that have been stopped when shooting in public with the copper citing the new terror stop and search law as a reason. Even tho he knows its bollox and so do we they still seem to do it.
Suggest you search The Register (theregister.co.uk) for some useful photographer/law/terrorism articles
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  #51  
Old 08-04-2010, 08:40 PM
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On the flip side…..

I was in the US shortly after the Laughlin river shoot out-out in 2002. This is when the Mongols and Hells Angels went at it in a big way. Following that event there was a genuine feeling that there would be further violence at other major motorcycle events in the US between these two clubs. In Sturgis (where I was) they banned patch wearing in all the major bars such as the Full Throttle saloon.

I do not subscribe to the whole sale banning of patch wearing in public but I have also been in a bar where there was the prospect of an impending gunfight!

It’s hard to draw the balance. There is a problem with some patch wearing clubs in the US. How you differentiate these is another matter.
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  #52  
Old 08-04-2010, 09:53 PM
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Suggest you search The Register (theregister.co.uk) for some useful photographer/law/terrorism articles
cheers seen a few in the trade press but not this thanks
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  #53  
Old 10-04-2010, 10:06 AM
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Read it then think about it



One killed in Tulsa drug raid

Authorities shot and killed a man while serving a search warrant at a motorcycle gang hangout Friday morning.

The Tulsa County Sheriffs Office's Special Operations Team entered the building in the 1800 block of North Kingston Place to find a man lying on the ground, Sgt Shannon Clark said.

Three deputies fired at the man as he turned to retrieve a handgun from a nearby bookshelf about 7:05 a.m. The man died at the scene, Clark said.

Members of the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office gather near a motorcycle gang clubhouse where they shot a man during a drug raid Friday morning. The man reached for a gun as deputies entered the building in the 1800 block of North Kingston Place. MATT BARNARD/Tulsa World


While searching the building, deputies found what appears to be a pipe bomb, and the Tulsa Police Department's bomb squad was called to examine the device. TPD's homicide unit is also investigating the shooting.

Clark said other people from the building are being questioned, but no arrests have been made. The building served as a clubhouse for the Rogues motorcycle gang at one time, he said.

Authorities had been investigating activity at the building for some time and were serving the warrant for marijuana and methamphetamine, Clark said.

The bomb squad examined the device and found that it was not explosive. Authorities will now begin the process of searching through the building, Clark said.

There is a surveillance camera bolted above the buildings front door, but it wasn't immediately clear if it was operational.


So he didnt have a gun,
It wasnt a pipe bomb
And even though it used to be a clubhouse, it isnt anymore, but still called a bikers hangout?
But its OK there was a surveillance camera, so they must have been up to no good
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  #54  
Old 11-04-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
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So he didnt have a gun,

??? It says he went to retrieve a hand gun from a book shelf...what do you think he was going to do with it, scratch his armpits?
In a raid situation you dont have time to give the benefit of any doubt. If you are told to stay still (presumably being Merckans', they would all be shouting at the top of their lungs as they went in) and you dont, you are a danger. If you reach for a gun you are a direct threat. Take the fucker out. Quick.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:15 PM
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As per the helicopter thread,
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:13 PM
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I found that story about Tulsa fascinating in a dispassionate way, so followed some stories about it through the Tulsa Post.
Here's a city the size of Leicester thats nearly bankrupt with two rival police forces competing for power in their own turf war, and which uses part-time policemen employed to provide armed response units (would you give a special constable a pop gun, let alone an M16?).

In nearby Muskogee, the size of Bridgend, a bit smaller than Macclesfield, theres a gang war going on with teenagers gunning each other down in shopping malls.

And we think our society is in trouble...
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  #57  
Old 11-04-2010, 07:30 PM
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??? It says he went to retrieve a hand gun from a book shelf...what do you think he was going to do with it, scratch his armpits?
In a raid situation you dont have time to give the benefit of any doubt. If you are told to stay still (presumably being Merckans', they would all be shouting at the top of their lungs as they went in) and you dont, you are a danger. If you reach for a gun you are a direct threat. Take the fucker out. Quick.
He didnt have a gun in his hand, he reached for the book shelf
Yeah take him out...........do you work for the filth?
They said they found a suspected pipe bomb and it wasnt, I cant load the pic but they where armed to the teeth, mind you I suppose as they had a cctv camera they got everything they deserved
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:21 PM
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No. I dont work for the filth.
But I stand by what I said.
If I was told to 'stand still' by armed cop/soldier/lunatic intruder but reached towards a gun, I would expect to get shot. When you're staring down the wrong end of a weapon its best to do as you're told if you want to live. Common sense really isnt it?
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  #59  
Old 14-04-2010, 02:51 PM
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Here's an interesting piece, even though the courts said no, they are trying to find another way to implement laws in Oz, not only that the bit the police go on about at the end,a brawl,between a few people! what would they do if they had football hooligans?


The Commonwealth and states have moved to back South Australia in its High Court fight over contentious anti-gang laws.

There has been a limbo since a South Australian court ruled part of the laws invalid.

Whatever the outcome of the next week's proceedings, it will affect police efforts to clamp down on bikie-related violence.

South Australia wants the High Court to restore a key part of its legal crackdown on bikies.

Last year's Supreme Court decision to declare part of the laws invalid has thwarted police in trying to act against some motorcycle club members.

Now the Commonwealth and all states and territories, except Tasmania and the ACT, are rallying behind the South Australian Government's battle.

They have lodged documents in the High Court in support of the fight.

Craig Caldicott is a barrister representing the United Motorcycle Council, which is made up of the key motorcycle clubs.

"There are a number of other states who have implemented similar legislation and they simply want to have their say," he said.

"The Commonwealth is saying that you should have the right to appeal from the summary court to a superior court, very much in line with some of the most recent High Court judgment."

Governments have been tough public critics of gangs because of a series of bikie-related attacks in recent years.

But Mr Caldicott thinks a court win for motorcycle clubs would lead to a better crime-fighting approach.

He says legal changes may be forced on other states if the South Australian Government loses in the High Court.

"What it indicates is that parts of the various legislations may be inoperable and they may have to go back to the drawing board," he said.

"A saner, more rational approach to this type of policing and legislation would certainly be welcome."

South Australian Police Association president Mark Carroll is less sympathetic.

"We're talking about serious and organised crime. We're talking about people whose behaviour involves violence, threat of violence, extortion a whole range of heinous crimes," he said.

"We are hopeful that the courts will support these laws and certainly the courage of the government in progressing with these laws and SAPOL [SA Police] should be acknowledged."

South Australian police have dealt with confrontation this week between the Hell's Angels and the New Boys street gang.

Members of both are facing charges over a brawl in Adelaide's Hindley Street in the early hours of Monday.

Police made a further arrest in Adelaide on Wednesday night, a man, 35, from Enfield they say is a New Boys member.

He has been charged with affray.

Police Commissioner Mal Hyde wants a faster legal process to outlaw bikie gangs.

"We'll continue to press for some further changes in the law to help to make it more effective," he said.

"We have made a request of the Attorney-General for a declaration in respect to the Rebels but we have other things in place and I wouldn't like to forecast that at this stage."

The High Court challenge starts next Tuesday.
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  #60  
Old 19-04-2010, 07:31 AM
Simon B Simon B is offline
Talk, Type, Breath, Talk, Type, Breath....
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
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http://www.salem-news.com/articles/a...-rights-tk.php


show down with christian bikers and police


well a bit of one if you watch the video clip


still important point about people's right
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