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  #181  
Old 12-01-2010, 11:25 AM
wurzel wurzel is offline
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Could this help stop the overzealous policing we have seen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453878.stm
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  #182  
Old 12-01-2010, 12:18 PM
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Not until all legal avenues have been exhausted. The gubbermint will appeal this decision and string it out as long as possible giving the plod all the time they need to keep doing it.
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  #183  
Old 12-01-2010, 12:56 PM
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Not until all legal avenues have been exhausted. The gubbermint will appeal this decision and string it out as long as possible giving the plod all the time they need to keep doing it.
You cynical old sod.

Or the police will just ignore it entirely.

Cos the law is what they say it is.
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  #184  
Old 12-01-2010, 01:06 PM
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Could this help stop the overzealous policing we have seen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453878.stm
Not a chance, they will just stop you for some other reason if they want to. We have enough laws in this country to arrest folks for everything they do or don't do.

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  #185  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:04 PM
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Could this help stop the overzealous policing we have seen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453878.stm
I doubt it very much.

Think right down to the lowest common denominator, the average cop on the street. First of all what genetic defect is responsible for any right thinking person to actually WANT to become a cop? Forget that tired bullshit about public service bla blah blah. Certain members of our society WANT a uniform to compensate for thier failings and insecurities. They want power and authority over everybody they come across.

On the next tier of police authority you get the inspectors and superintendants that dictate to the mindless puppets on the beat. They tell the cuntstables what they need to focus on. Usually whatever group of people are the easiest to nick for maximum brownie points from the government. Next in line will be the softest targets to produce extra revenue from fixed penalty notices.

The ASSociation of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), are the official go betweens for the government and the troops on the ground. The politicos tell ACPO what to do and then the shit filters downhill to officer Dribble and co.

Whatever the politicos tell ACPO to do will be what happens to me and you when we next get a tuggoing to or coming away from an event. Long and short of it is, the fuckers are going to get you one way or another.

All you can do is be prepared and deal with the shit when it hits the fan.

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  #186  
Old 12-01-2010, 03:06 PM
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Bloody well put chop
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  #187  
Old 12-01-2010, 03:17 PM
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Very cynical, and a total generalisation, but I don't doubt there's a grain of truth in what Chopper says, especially the bit about shit filtering southwards.....
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  #188  
Old 12-01-2010, 03:29 PM
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From the current ACPO NATIONAL MOTORCYCLE ENFORCEMENT STRATEGY
http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/polici...gy_website.doc (word download)

Some bits Warwickshire obviously failed to read

1.7 It is recognised that within the UK, police forces adopt many differing strategies when dealing with motorcyclists. This can result in a lack of focus on key safety issues and can lead to distrust and animosity amongst motorcyclists

2.1.2 It is hoped that the introduction of clear guidelines will help to alleviate animosity between the police and motorcycle groups and will encourage an air of co-operation and partnership, working together to achieve a safer road environment for all.

2.3.9.3 It is recommended that where road checks are utilised, care must be taken not to unnecessarily delay motorcyclists. The checks should be well resourced and focussed on specific issues. Motorcyclists should be told why they are being stopped and generalised trawling for offences is not recommended.

And some bits to watch out for

Plates

2.3.5.3 It is difficult for enforcement agencies to differentiate between the individual who wishes to make a fashion statement or enhance the appearance of their machine, from one who is deliberately attempting to avoid detection for criminal purposes.

2.3.5.4 Enforcement action should be taken in all cases where a registration plate does not meet existing regulations but alternatives to prosecution may be considered in cases where the plate is clearly legible and it is clear that the breach of regulations is not an attempt to evade automated reading equipment.

exhausts

2.3.6.3 This issue affects the wider public and in many cases serves to alienate them from motorcyclists in general by reinforcing stereotypes. The police have a duty to protect all road users and communities, it is therefore necessary to take proactive action against the use of illegal exhausts on motorcycles.
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  #189  
Old 12-01-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by droid View Post
especially the bit about shit filtering southwards.....
That bit must be right 'cos we had an 'operations manager who said.....
"Shit rolls down hill"
When trying to implement new terms and conditions that were not liked or wanted.
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  #190  
Old 13-01-2010, 12:42 AM
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Very cynical, and a total generalisation, but I don't doubt there's a grain of truth in what Chopper says, especially the bit about shit filtering southwards.....
Not at all cynical or a total generalisation. My comments were based on my own experience and my own research.

Your average cop wants power and authority. Without having to do very much at all to be granted that power. Once that power and authority is granted it is automatically subject to abuse and personal interpretation. Have you ever tried to make a complaint against a cop? If you had you would know that they all stick together and cover each others backs even when they know full well that one of them has at the very least bent the rules.

If you have the misfortune to come into contact with a higher ranking cop, you will then be stonewalled at every question you may wish to ask. They or thier underlings will resort to the time honoured approach of "Shut up and do as I say or YOUR NICKED". (See above. Higher ranks just get more power and authority).

The top tier ranks of cops are the ones that tell the lower ranks what to do, but they do not allow them to think for themselves, just make them follow orders.

Now read this, taken from the ACPO national motorcycle enforcement strategy.

2.3.5.3 It is difficult for enforcement agencies to differentiate between the individual who wishes to make a fashion statement or enhance the appearance of their machine, from one who is deliberately attempting to avoid detection for criminal purposes.

2.3.5.4 Enforcement action should be taken in all cases where a registration plate does not meet existing regulations but alternatives to prosecution may be considered in cases where the plate is clearly legible and it is clear that the breach of regulations is not an attempt to evade automated reading equipment.

"

OK, so how many of us that have been nicked for a small plate have had any sort of alternative offered, instead of getting a fixed penalty? The emphasise within the police strategy is to nick people or ensure they can be tracked by ANPR.

Now extend that police mentality to events such as The Bulldog Bash. That power crazy prick, ACC Holland, the asshole responsible for the draconian measures at the bash, somehow got the green light to abuse thousands of peoples civil and human rights. He claimed it was in the interest of public safety but as usual declined to reveal any of his intelligence sources or any evidence to support his claims. Holland abused his power and authority and ordered his underlings to do the dirty work. The cops that stopped those going to the bash were following orders. Some of them revelled in it.

On a historical note. The Nuremberg trials of the top Nazi's in post war Germany all tried to claim that they were just "Following orders". That was declared as NOT A DEFENCE. Ignorance of the law is also not a defence. Unless of course you happen to be a cop.

The police are just the mindless puppets of a badly failed, corrupt and morally bankrupt regime. They (The regime) are currently working round the clock to ensure they do as much damage as they can before they get ousted from thier cushy jobs at the next election.

We have never had so many new laws brought in by any government as Nu Labour. The next lot into power will do nothing to overturn the raft of anti freedom legislation because it will suit thier purposes. They might make a few alterations to enhance the rewards they get from it, but you and I will still be the ones to fall foul of it.

Chopper.
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  #191  
Old 13-01-2010, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Not at all cynical or a total generalisation. My comments were based on my own experience and my own research.

Chopper.
'Research' done specifically to back up an a priori conclusion based on one person's experiences?
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  #192  
Old 13-01-2010, 09:12 AM
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'Research' done specifically to back up an a priori conclusion based on one person's experiences?
Droid, take it you have always been treated fairly by the filth then have you? never met anyone who has been treated like a criminal even though they have done nothing wrong.
One persons experience, bloody hell we should be so lucky.
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  #193  
Old 13-01-2010, 09:45 AM
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Interesting comment on the radio from an ex-copper who said that some officers, knowing that the stop and search statistics are skewed towards ethnic minorities for whatever reason, will deliberately try to "balance the books" for their force by stopping and searching white males.

That'll be us then.
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  #194  
Old 13-01-2010, 10:02 AM
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Droid, take it you have always been treated fairly by the filth then have you? never met anyone who has been treated like a criminal even though they have done nothing wrong.
One persons experience, bloody hell we should be so lucky.
Yes to the first question.

Dunno 'bout the second question, it's never come up.

Might be because I don't look at the Police as if they were something I'd just stepped in.
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  #195  
Old 13-01-2010, 10:28 AM
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Yes to the first question.

Dunno 'bout the second question, it's never come up.

Might be because I don't look at the Police as if they were something I'd just stepped in.
Its got nothing to with how people look at coppers, the last year I have been stopped at the bully had all my stuf rifled through,had to pay 10 to get copy of the paperwork, two weeks after the Bully my whole club gets stopped asked for details etc etc
Look at the rallies that have been cancelled, the wonderful Dyfed Powys filth
Now its Ok for ethnic minorities to complain about their treatment, we can let people out of court with no charges for calling soldiers rapists, baby killers etc
But ride a custom motorcycle..........your avin a larf son


Yeah my opinion of them has definately got worse, and come to think of it, yep I have wiped better of the sole of my boot ( thanks for that one Stevie)


Nope
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  #196  
Old 13-01-2010, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by droid View Post
'Research' done specifically to back up an a priori conclusion based on one person's experiences?
Not at all Droid.

After the Bulldog of 2008, when Holland decided to infringe my civil and human rights. I spent some time looking at the whole situation. My entire club was affected by the police action, plus a great number of people I knew that had also gone to the Bash.

I was bloody livid at the way I and my club brothers had been treated. I was stunned by the whole police operation. I had not seen anything like that since I was in the army. I could see no justification for the police action. I could also see that the action was heavily biased against the motorcycle riding fraternity.

I did research to find other similar sized public events and chek out the police actions at each of them. Plus the number of arrests and incidents of public disorder at each of those events. I spent some time checking up on police complaint procedures. Citizens rights, police powers and legal avenues for those subjected to unlawful police action.

I then applied all that I had researched to my own experience. My conclusion was that to make a complaint against the police was an uphill struggle right from the start. The system is geared to protecting the police. It is awkward and hostile to the complainant.

I recognised that one of the main objectives of the police operation at the Bash was to gather intelligence about members of the public that attended. Hence the vast number of police officers using digital cameras.

As a club member, I could clearly see that for me to make an official complaint about the way I as an individual was treated, would hand the police a golden opportunity to harrass myself and my club brothers after making the complaint. I do not have the right to take any action that will ultimatly affect other people. It is not for me to take such action without the consent and approval of all those that would have been affected.

You need to look at the bigger picture mate. Not just your own experience. The biker scene is much bigger than any one individual. As an individual I had certain rights, supposedly to protect me from police malpractice. Those rights came at a very high price. The price was so high that my rights were effectively taken away. I did not create the system, those in power did so to protect the people that serve thier purposes and have been given the power and authority to do so.

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  #197  
Old 13-01-2010, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Not at all Droid.

After the Bulldog of 2008, when Holland decided to infringe my civil and human rights. I spent some time looking at the whole situation. My entire club was affected by the police action, plus a great number of people I knew that had also gone to the Bash.

I was bloody livid at the way I and my club brothers had been treated. I was stunned by the whole police operation. I had not seen anything like that since I was in the army. I could see no justification for the police action. I could also see that the action was heavily biased against the motorcycle riding fraternity.

I did research to find other similar sized public events and chek out the police actions at each of them. Plus the number of arrests and incidents of public disorder at each of those events. I spent some time checking up on police complaint procedures. Citizens rights, police powers and legal avenues for those subjected to unlawful police action.

I then applied all that I had researched to my own experience. My conclusion was that to make a complaint against the police was an uphill struggle right from the start. The system is geared to protecting the police. It is awkward and hostile to the complainant.

I recognised that one of the main objectives of the police operation at the Bash was to gather intelligence about members of the public that attended. Hence the vast number of police officers using digital cameras.

As a club member, I could clearly see that for me to make an official complaint about the way I as an individual was treated, would hand the police a golden opportunity to harrass myself and my club brothers after making the complaint. I do not have the right to take any action that will ultimatly affect other people. It is not for me to take such action without the consent and approval of all those that would have been affected.

You need to look at the bigger picture mate. Not just your own experience. The biker scene is much bigger than any one individual. As an individual I had certain rights, supposedly to protect me from police malpractice. Those rights came at a very high price. The price was so high that my rights were effectively taken away. I did not create the system, those in power did so to protect the people that serve thier purposes and have been given the power and authority to do so.

Chopper.
Gotta say that I don't agree with everything you write mate.. but that is absolutely spot on, and well said. The police and this fucked up government are taking the piss.
Wonder if the latest euro court ruling about abuse of powers by the police using the anti terrorist laws will filter down through the ranks and stop bollox like this?. won't hold my breath though...
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  #198  
Old 13-01-2010, 07:00 PM
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Which answers my question well, Chopper.

In your situation I'd have been livid too. And probably come to the same conclusions.

As far as my answer to Simon's questions: he asked the questions, and I answered them honestly. If the answers weren't the 'right' ones then maybe the questions shouldn't have been asked of me. Or maybe been different ones?
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  #199  
Old 13-01-2010, 08:09 PM
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lls-Angel.html

interesting article and the big telling phrase is this one..'Being a BBC correspondent in the week and a Hell's Angel at the weekend doesn't sit well with the high ups in the Beeb.
'They felt he had gone too far, especially after he criticised the police, and decided to sack him."


The mere fact that he called into question the police actions upset the BBC
so much for a free press
Obviously the muppets at the beeb don't want to upset the powers that be.
I was at the bash last year and the pigs were total assholes.
I agree completely with chopper on this one.
I started riding and going to rallies in 79 where having a good time wasn't against the law.
It's a different world we live in now and not for the better
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  #200  
Old 13-01-2010, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
Not at all Droid.

After the Bulldog of 2008, when Holland decided to infringe my civil and human rights. I spent some time looking at the whole situation. My entire club was affected by the police action, plus a great number of people I knew that had also gone to the Bash.

I was bloody livid at the way I and my club brothers had been treated. I was stunned by the whole police operation. I had not seen anything like that since I was in the army. I could see no justification for the police action. I could also see that the action was heavily biased against the motorcycle riding fraternity.

I did research to find other similar sized public events and chek out the police actions at each of them. Plus the number of arrests and incidents of public disorder at each of those events. I spent some time checking up on police complaint procedures. Citizens rights, police powers and legal avenues for those subjected to unlawful police action.

I then applied all that I had researched to my own experience. My conclusion was that to make a complaint against the police was an uphill struggle right from the start. The system is geared to protecting the police. It is awkward and hostile to the complainant.

I recognised that one of the main objectives of the police operation at the Bash was to gather intelligence about members of the public that attended. Hence the vast number of police officers using digital cameras.

As a club member, I could clearly see that for me to make an official complaint about the way I as an individual was treated, would hand the police a golden opportunity to harrass myself and my club brothers after making the complaint. I do not have the right to take any action that will ultimatly affect other people. It is not for me to take such action without the consent and approval of all those that would have been affected.

You need to look at the bigger picture mate. Not just your own experience. The biker scene is much bigger than any one individual. As an individual I had certain rights, supposedly to protect me from police malpractice. Those rights came at a very high price. The price was so high that my rights were effectively taken away. I did not create the system, those in power did so to protect the people that serve thier purposes and have been given the power and authority to do so.

Chopper.
I can't entirely agree with what you say, but as it is well know, Power corrupts. Most people dislike coppers, except when you need them. When I had my accident the WPC who did the statements etc was very good and was actually on my side (makes a change for a biker to get their support though) and if the scrote hadn't of done a runner she would have had him. On another note, I had an attempted burgulary, they had smashed the back door window & got in. They got funnelled in by my barricading two of the doors (not intentionally, I have my computer behind one and a tool shelf behind the other) so they could only gain entry through a long cupboard/store room. When I got home their were five coppers in my house. A neighbor had spotted them and chased the scrotes down the road, the cops had just arrived in the next court on a different call. One of the coppers spotted something in my hallway, to which all I can say was 'Very Illegal' and obviously so. He made a brief comment and much to my suprise, did absolutely nothing about it........

I must say that maybe my experiences have been exceptional and that I have been lucky as some coppers have been total bastards.

I guess a lot of institutionalised organisations will stick together, look at what happens if somebody sets about a squaddie, his mates are soon there to defend him even if he was in the wrong. I know that is a different scenario from copper cover-ups, just saying that mates stick up for mates (or masons in some cases). I certainly agree that coppers should not investigate coppers, that would be like crooks running the police force (Ooops! They already do). I think that the plastic cops are probably worse because they couldn't even come up to the 'normal' standards required......
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  #201  
Old 14-01-2010, 07:26 AM
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Which answers my question well, Chopper.

In your situation I'd have been livid too. And probably come to the same conclusions.

As far as my answer to Simon's questions: he asked the questions, and I answered them honestly. If the answers weren't the 'right' ones then maybe the questions shouldn't have been asked of me. Or maybe been different ones?
Nope fair enough Droid, just cant understand how with all the shyte that has been thrown at bikers recently by the old bill I was suprised that anyone would give those answers
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  #202  
Old 14-01-2010, 09:54 AM
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I personally haven't had any shite off the Police.
That's why I answered the way I did. Though if I had have, my answers might (would) have been rather different.

The hassle given to the Bulldog was unwarranted and IMHO represented one man's warped view of reality. That man is a bloody disgrace and should at the very least be knocked back a few grades, if not as far as dealing with pissheads in Stratford on a Saturday night.
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  #203  
Old 17-01-2010, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopperFXR View Post
On a historical note. The Nuremberg trials of the top Nazi's in post war Germany all tried to claim that they were just "Following orders". That was declared as NOT A DEFENCE.

Chopper.
Godwins Law cropping up again!! ;0)
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  #204  
Old 17-01-2010, 09:19 PM
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Not really, as it was the point where' Just obeying orders' stopped being a defence. Just as Ariel Sharon used it as an excuse for the Shattila massacre and Serbs & Croats used it in the Former Jugoslavia. Since the Police are a fascist organisation with unrestricted powers it behoves them to OBEY and ENFORCE the law, rather than 'just obey orders'.

Godwin's Law actually states that when a thread has to refer to Hitler or the Nazis then the thread is finished. In this case I don't think that law applies.....
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