rally insurance... and beer licence

[guydewdney]

we arnt doing a rally this year (insanity rally) due to various reasons - one of which is insurance.

some members of the club were paranoid that someone (punter or local village person) was going to hurt themselves and the club would be stung for loads of dosh - in theory bancrupting several people.

Personally i think its extremely unlikely... but what sort of cover can we get for next year - and how much do people pay?

Our rally was all incredibly above board - all electrics done by qualified professional electrician, signed off and everything. H&S from the local council very happy indeed. Custard wrestling people had to sign disclaimer (dont know if that would stand up in court). Full risk assessment done by professional film industry H&S consultant...

What do you guys do?



The silly thing was, a few people did get hurt (minor stuff - all treated at the first aid) - but there was never a question about sueing us...


second question:-

Beer / drinks licence.

we had to apply for a temp licence - even though it could easily be classed as a private party (i.e. pre-book only) - this year the licence is going to be a bloody fortune. Ditto the music licence. We feel quite miffed that the council want so much dosh for this - when ALL the profits go to a charity (Thames Valley Air Ambulance) - so the event is technically a charity event...

We even did the raffle ticket= winning beer route AS WELL as getting the licence???? dont unnerstan it myself..

What do other people do on this side? I know a lot just ignore it / risk it (as we used to) - but i want answers that will keep the paranoid members happy....

Rally is limited to 500. In a field. Lots of bogs. Nothing odd about the place (no rivers / cliffs etc)


Thanks

[Mad Dog]

Where do I begin ? :rolleyes:

Right, let's knock this old one down first:-

Raffle ticket/voucher/tick-off-card in exchange for alcoholic drinks

This is NOT legal. Supply is supply, no matter what the exchanged currency, a drinks license is for the sale of alcohol and is regulated.


Entertainment License

We pay £1,800 each year for 2 evenings of "Public Entertainment"
That is based on a flat fee plus 49 pence per head (2,500 entry)
If you run it as a private party with pre-sold tickets to a privately invited group, then no License required. However if so much as one person can turn up at the gate and pay even just 10pence to get in, then it is a "Public" event.

Some Local Authorities allow you to apply for a rebate of the Licensing fee (or part thereof) AFTER the event if you can prove the Charitable Element.


Insurance

We "affiliate" to the BMF for which we enjoy the pleasure of £5million event insurance for the whole year, whatever and whenever we are organising.
It costs less than £100.


Good News for Organisers of small events

The Licensing Act changes after the 1st November 2005

Organisers of events up to 499 people will be able to submit a "Temporary Event Notification" no less than 10 days before the event.
This will be a very small cost and allows you to stage entertainment and sell your own alcohol. :D

Bigger events are somewhat buggered.


I am currently writing an article on this for BSH.

[BigBod]

You can get Public Liability Insurance from either MAG or BMF. We had bloke try and sue us for a broken wrist after he fell over a guy rope. He didn't get very far.

[Mad Dog]

We affiliate to both BMF and MAG

BMF is cheaper.

[Doro]

ooo I wondered what had happened to the insanity rally this year

[excalibur]

Mad Dog, are you saying you cant have a raffle and give away beer as a prize unless you have a license then?

[Mad Dog]

Mad Dog, are you saying you cant have a raffle and give away beer as a prize unless you have a license then?

Of course you can, if the prize is clearly part of a series of prizes that can be won in a chance selection from a greater number of loosing tickets.

Wot you cannot do is exchange an alcoholic drink for some token,
where all the tokens are paid for, and all the tokens can be individually or collectively used in exchange for an (or several) alcoholic drink(s) upon presentation.
This would require a license as clearly a supply has been made in direct exchange for a payment.

This also applies to out-of-permitted hours sales.

[excalibur]

if the prize is clearly part of a series of prizes that can be won in a chance selection from a greater number of loosing tickets.


where did you find that?

I have been looking and can find no where it says the percentage of prizes per tickets sold

[Doro]

so does the old trick of selling raffle tickets (or something small and cheap like a biro e.g.) and giving away a free bottle of beer still work?

this used to be a way of getting round licence trading hours, also for sunday trading before it was changed - our local boozer used to sell you a pen for the price of the lager, and give you the lager as a free 'give-away' offer :cool:

[excalibur]

Thats why i asked about the raffle tickets.
If there is no stipulation about how many tickets can be winners, then in theory every ticket could be a winner

[Mad Dog]

where did you find that?

I have been looking and can find no where it says the percentage of prizes per tickets sold


If you are looking for an exception to the Licensing Act, then you won't find it in that form.
A Licensing Officer will look at how you are selling alcohol and determine whether the means is correct, ie. if every ticket sold can be redeemed for an alcoholic drink, then that is a sale.
Do you intend to run a raffle and then call out winners every couple of minutes? Do those winners then get presented with a prize from the choice you have on offer? :rolleyes:


I seem to remember from some distant court case that there was some problem with raffling alcohol in village halls that did not have a bar license.
If I remember correctly it was deemed ok as long as it was only a small part of a range of (non-alcohol) prizes that could be won in a game of chance.
There is some definition in the lotteries and Gaming act regarding "Games of Chance".

[guydewdney]

we thought that we could have a raffle for a 'big' prize - with all the losing tickets (all bar one) getting a consolation prize... maybe a pint.. or a T shirt... etc.

We are affiliated to the BMF - but the paranoid krew didnt want to belive in this... :rolleyes:

[Mad Dog]

we thought that we could have a raffle for a 'big' prize - with all the losing tickets (all bar one) getting a consolation prize... maybe a pint.. or a T shirt... etc.

We are affiliated to the BMF - but the paranoid krew didnt want to belive in this... :rolleyes:

If you read yer paperwork, then you'll see you've got £5 million insurance cover, as long as you have obtained all the right Licenses and taken "All due Dilligence" in minimising or highlighting risks.


Why not just get a License and be done with it.
get a local publican to sort it and run the bar, he then has to front the money for the stock, supply staff, and enough change for the tills.
Plus, he will pay for the license out of his takings and can pay you guys about £1000 from his profit.
Sell tins in advance of the witching hour.

After 1st November this will no longer be a problem for an event of max 499 people.

[smeghead]

another thought on the bar theres plenty of mobile bars out there, we used to use on for our racing club used to charge him 15% of his profit, seemed a good arangement as all the hassle of running a bar was his probs not ours just a thought

[Mad Dog]

I have just checked this out with our Bar franchise guy (who has 2 pubs and runs a large mobile bar operation)


Under current Legislation, a bar license for an event costs £10

A new license or annual renewal for a bar costs £21

These can only be applied for by an existing Licensee or the Secretary of a an established Club.

The only way this can ge dearer is if you use a Solicitor to make the application, in which case you can add about £150 - ie the cost of his/her fees.


Alcohol cannot be legally raffled - even in a legit raffle as a prize unless the raffle organiser holds a License.

The sale of an item (such as the pen mentioned earlier) with a free drink thrown in is questionable as a "sale" under the current regulations,
BUT
will be illegal under the new act because the wording has been changed from "Sale" to "Supply and Consumption".

Therefore, from the 1st November 2005 it will be illegal to even give away Alcoholic drinks under any circumstances without a License - this includes a village hall raffle.

[Borg]

I
will be illegal under the new act because the wording has been changed from "Sale" to "Supply and Consumption".




So if my mate GIVES me a can of beer he's breaking the law ?

[Mad Dog]

So if my mate GIVES me a can of beer he's breaking the law ?

No. If it is a gift between 2 people.

BUT

If it is the organiser of an event for a group of people to whom he/she supplies an alcoholic beveridge, then that is called supply, and the supplier can also be held liable if the person who was supplied and consumed said beveridge subsequently has an accident or indulges in Ant-Social behaviour; where it can be deemed that the consumption of the alcohol has been a contibutory factor.

[Borg]

very strange

[Jay]

Mad Dog, you seem an extremely knowledgeable Chap, so I'll ask you this question which is sort of on topic:-

CAN A 'COVER-ALL' WAIVER BE INTRODUCED AND SIGNED BY ANY ATTENDEE AT A RALLY.

To elaborate, I see the American Claim Culture is well and truly taking route in the UK now. Where someone having a bad day, making a mistake or just not being absolutely perfect, can open up a stream of claims for people looking to squeeze cash out of a situation.

To secure the future or traditional rallies and even the Church Fete, I would be perfectly happy to sign a waiver which states that I attend only on the basis that any accident I am involved in, is just that. That the organiser will not be held responsible for me cooking inside my tent and burning it down etc.

Obviously this is a simplistic description but surely we must have the right to make that decision for ourselves?

[Mad Dog]

Mad Dog, you seem an extremely knowledgeable Chap, so I'll ask you this question which is sort of on topic:-

CAN A 'COVER-ALL' WAIVER BE INTRODUCED AND SIGNED BY ANY ATTENDEE AT A RALLY.

To elaborate, I see the American Claim Culture is well and truly taking route in the UK now. Where someone having a bad day, making a mistake or just not being absolutely perfect, can open up a stream of claims for people looking to squeeze cash out of a situation.

To secure the future or traditional rallies and even the Church Fete, I would be perfectly happy to sign a waiver which states that I attend only on the basis that any accident I am involved in, is just that. That the organiser will not be held responsible for me cooking inside my tent and burning it down etc.

Obviously this is a simplistic description but surely we must have the right to make that decision for ourselves?


We already do something similar, although you don't have to sign anything.

The purpose of Licensing is NOT to prevent people from holding events.
It is to ensure that anyone who seeks to charge money and make some gain from doing so, takes all reasonable care to ensure the safety and well-being of those attending and those who may be affected in the local environment.

It is a process of verifying, to a laid down set of measured standards, that this duty of care has been adressed - following an assesment of risks.

So,
the first step is to gain the Public Entertainment License, which involves consideration by the Police, Fire Brigade and all matters under the remit of a Local Authority.
Having gained the License, your Insurance is then valid.

Any further hazards that cannot be easily remedied, such as tent guy ropes must be highlighted.

Therefore, when you attend the Pissed Indian, you either hand your ticket in at the gate, or pay the on-the-gate price, in return you get a plastic envelope.
in this envelope is your numbered wristband (which will match your advance ticket No. or you signed in number)
and
a yellow sheet of paper on which is the running order for the weekend, and a Health and Safety statement that includes the wording:-

Renegade Motorcycle Club accept no liability for Injury or Loss however caused. We take as much care as possible but you are advised that Tent Guy Ropes, Site Equipment and ground conditions etc. may form a hazard that you must look out for

You have to open the envelope to put your wristband on BEFORE you enter the site, and thereby as such you legally accept everything in that envelope
including the Health and Safety statements. Everyone gets one, if you choose to ignore it, that's your lookout.


Clever bugger aren't I :rolleyes:

[excalibur]

Isnt it a sad enditement on this country when we have to do this kind of thing.........what happened to the free and easy lifestyle we was brought up with?

back to licensing....what we have done in the past is use a pub site with a field. Although not strictly legal, we have sold beer on behalf of the landlord of the pub. Usualy what happens is we pay 5p a bottle less than is being charged behind the bar. No overheads as we pay when we have sold it, as far as we are concerned it is the pub that is licensed (like I said not strictly legal) and in 20 years no problems.
Of course some of the beer we sell has been picked up at Netto (£1.10 a bottle at the moment for Newkie), we have never had a problem with the licensing people........its just a matter of how legal you think you need to be.


I for one miss the days gone by when we said FUCK the system, its our lifestyle and we will do what we want and fuck the consequences.

[Mad Dog]

Isnt it a sad enditement on this country when we have to do this kind of thing.........what happened to the free and easy lifestyle we was brought up with?

back to licensing....what we have done in the past is use a pub site with a field. Although not strictly legal, we have sold beer on behalf of the landlord of the pub. Usualy what happens is we pay 5p a bottle less than is being charged behind the bar. No overheads as we pay when we have sold it, as far as we are concerned it is the pub that is licensed (like I said not strictly legal) and in 20 years no problems.
Of course some of the beer we sell has been picked up at Netto (£1.10 a bottle at the moment for Newkie), we have never had a problem with the licensing people........its just a matter of how legal you think you need to be.


I for one miss the days gone by when we said FUCK the system, its our lifestyle and we will do what we want and fuck the consequences.


That's because either, you've been fortunate not to have an inspection by, or been reported to, the Local licensing officer,

or,
They know and consider it a low risk and excercise a bit of common sense.

This does happen.

I could not possibly comment as to which event this applies to but I had a meeting in a coffee shop once with a police Licensing officer who said to me:

"We know what you're gonna do, and, as long as we can't see it from the road and we don't get called to any incidents, we are willing to turn a blind eye."

Now,
this happened because in all aspects we had dealt with the Authorities squarely and fairly, and they could see we took all reasonable care.


When we go to court for our Drinks License, we get 2am every year.
Maidstone Area WILL NOT give anyone else past 12 midnight.
This happens coz the Magistrates cannot believe that there is no objection from the Police, and we turn up with a letter of SUPPORT from the Police - they would support us for 24hours if they could.
It really vexes everyone else in Court, and I consider that my way of fucking the system.

It also means that if some other "issue" occurs, you already have a good working relationship with the Plod, and it doesn't all get blown out of proportion.

Trust me, I have real experience of this.

[excalibur]

sorry...last post wasnt that clear (blame it on this lovely green stuff Ive just collected)

In years gone by, as bikers we would have said fuck it......licensing????? shove it up your arse, we will do what we want



seems we are slowly turning into our parents.......I REFUSE TO GROW UP DAMN IT

[Mad Dog]

sorry...last post wasnt that clear (blame it on this lovely green stuff Ive just collected)

In years gone by, as bikers we would have said fuck it......licensing????? shove it up your arse, we will do what we want



seems we are slowly turning into our parents.......I REFUSE TO GROW UP DAMN IT


Sadly it is mainly impromptu Rave Parties that have led to this situation.

Masses of people invading a field and doing untold damage - without the landowners permission and great difficulty moving them on.

Plus,

If you see the video footage of what happens at events when things go wrong, it'll put shivers up yer spine.

[excalibur]

just a thought....if people dont get a license, quiet who will the athorities take to court?


a few years back (96 I think it was) a companty tried to sue us. Having a solicitor in the club helped........but it was deemed that the club was not a legal entity and was the sum of its members and therefore this company would not be able to take an "unoficial" group to court

[Shep]

I'll look forward to reading you article, MD. We've been wading through the Licensing Act, cuz our rally site landlord (village hall committee) wants an answer now as to what we're going to do next year (April.)

Our biggest problem is that the cricket club is built onto the back of the village hall, they've got their own license, and they'd just love to do the bar at our rally, and keep most of the profit.

The bar takings are our biggest moneymaker, cuz we can get most things very cheap, and our profits get split between two charities. Three years ago we had to have the rally at a rugby club, they wouldn't believe how much beer we would shift, so ran out about 11pm on the Saturday, so we really don't want outsiders doing our bar.

I'm concerned if we do apply for a TEN, the cricketers will object, then we're stuffed.

As for insurance, we're with BMF, cheaper and no hassle. Used to insure through MAG, but their insurers were taking the wet stuff.

[Mad Dog]

I'll look forward to reading you article, MD. We've been wading through the Licensing Act, cuz our rally site landlord (village hall committee) wants an answer now as to what we're going to do next year (April.)

Our biggest problem is that the cricket club is built onto the back of the village hall, they've got their own license, and they'd just love to do the bar at our rally, and keep most of the profit.

The bar takings are our biggest moneymaker, cuz we can get most things very cheap, and our profits get split between two charities. Three years ago we had to have the rally at a rugby club, they wouldn't believe how much beer we would shift, so ran out about 11pm on the Saturday, so we really don't want outsiders doing our bar.

I'm concerned if we do apply for a TEN, the cricketers will object, then we're stuffed.


just coz someone objects, doesn't mean you are stuffed.

has to be a reasonable objection that can be upheld within the criteria of the Licensing Act.

Can't comment on your particular situation.

[BikerGran]

Just to clarify, I think the post about being affiliated to MAG or BMF might have been a bit misleading - it's not enough just to be affiliated, but if you are affiliated then you are eligible to buy their Public Liability Insurance, which as has been said, covers your club for any event organised by the club, for an incredibly large sum, and doesn't cost a great deal.

The actual cost depends on the number of members in your club.

[Mad Dog]

Just to clarify, I think the post about being affiliated to MAG or BMF might have been a bit misleading - it's not enough just to be affiliated, but if you are affiliated then you are eligible to buy their Public Liability Insurance, which as has been said, covers your club for any event organised by the club, for an incredibly large sum, and doesn't cost a great deal.

The actual cost depends on the number of members in your club.

not strictly true.

With MAG it is a seperate issue, but if yer club affiliates to the BMF it is automatically part of the fee, calculated on a number of members basis.

And, it is extremely cheap compared to trying to buy a Commercial Policy (like about 10 times)

[Jim]

We use BMF insurance for the Soggy Moggy, haven't had to call on it yet but its nice to know its there. We also use a site that already has a drinks and entertainment license, not easy to find but if you can it makes things so much easier.

[Shep]

Just to clarify, I think the post about being affiliated to MAG or BMF might have been a bit misleading - it's not enough just to be affiliated,

Sorry, that used to be true, but now just affiliating to BMF gives insurance cover. (So long as you follow their guidlines.)

[Jay]

We already do something similar, although you don't have to sign anything.

The purpose of Licensing is NOT to prevent people from holding events.
It is to ensure that anyone who seeks to charge money and make some gain from doing so, takes all reasonable care to ensure the safety and well-being of those attending and those who may be affected in the local environment.

It is a process of verifying, to a laid down set of measured standards, that this duty of care has been adressed - following an assesment of risks.

So,
the first step is to gain the Public Entertainment License, which involves consideration by the Police, Fire Brigade and all matters under the remit of a Local Authority.
Having gained the License, your Insurance is then valid.

Any further hazards that cannot be easily remedied, such as tent guy ropes must be highlighted.

Therefore, when you attend the Pissed Indian, you either hand your ticket in at the gate, or pay the on-the-gate price, in return you get a plastic envelope.
in this envelope is your numbered wristband (which will match your advance ticket No. or you signed in number)
and
a yellow sheet of paper on which is the running order for the weekend, and a Health and Safety statement that includes the wording:-



You have to open the envelope to put your wristband on BEFORE you enter the site, and thereby as such you legally accept everything in that envelope
including the Health and Safety statements. Everyone gets one, if you choose to ignore it, that's your lookout.


Clever bugger aren't I :rolleyes:
Sort Of ;)

But what I was suggesting is that, upon signing a waiver would this not remove the need for insurance completely?

[Mad Dog]

Sort Of ;)

But what I was suggesting is that, upon signing a waiver would this not remove the need for insurance completely?

I reckon not.
In my opinion, you can only waiver for the things that should be general common sense, where observance and care by the individual is most likely to prevent loss or harm to them.

Insurance is for where loss or harm occurs to the individual by factors that are beyond their control.

[BikerGran]

not strictly true.

With MAG it is a seperate issue, but if yer club affiliates to the BMF it is automatically part of the fee, calculated on a number of members basis.

And, it is extremely cheap compared to trying to buy a Commercial Policy (like about 10 times)

Fair enuff, it's obviously changed since I was on a club committee!