View Full Version : Does this trike look right to you?
irishbiker
29-08-2011, 08:36 PM
Hi All
Been doing some research for my next special and I've come across this trike:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIKE-NO-BIKE-LIENCE-REQUIRED-NO-ROAD-TAX-PAY-/140595159870?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item20bc1fe33e
He's got it registered as a BSA but looking at the front loop its def a XS11 frame (I've got a 81 myself) or am I loosing the plot?
How much trouble would the new owner be in?
P.
Conon
29-08-2011, 09:07 PM
Cant see that the new owner would be in any trouble at all. In fact, I cant see anything wrong that would make me wary. But to satisfy yourself, you could always ask the seller for the details on the V5.
happybiker
29-08-2011, 09:22 PM
Reg no. comes up as an 1101cc BSA. Doesn't say whether bike or trike though. Can't actually see any problem. As said previous, V5c needs a look at and if that's ok, no problem.
Looks like the only thing this seller is guilty off is poor spelling and offering part ex./ swop which is against Ebay rules. If someone reported him, the advert would be removed but it's too close to the end for any awkward person to do that now.
devon-tony
29-08-2011, 10:02 PM
Cant see it on my phone but odds are it started life as a bsa dandy. I would be worried as its obviously not and probably fraudulently claiming free road tax also at a guess
John Hopkins
29-08-2011, 11:57 PM
Cant see it on my phone but odds are it started life as a bsa dandy. I would be worried as its obviously not and probably fraudulently claiming free road tax also at a guess
Oh yes..I'd have to agree with that..Slightly modified BSA Dandy..engine bored out maybe.
John.
John Hopkins
30-08-2011, 12:02 AM
A real BSA Trike.
http://www.3wheelers.com/bsa.html
John.
he's flogging it because he knows within a year or so he won't be able to MOT it, and it'll be worthless. literally. he's trying to make a few quid while he still can. if you buy it, you'll have to register it properly, MSVA it and get a 'Q' plate....
you say the front loop is deffo XS11, does that not start the alarm bells ringing???
why has it got BSA numbers on it???
worst case, if you buy it, you'll get stopped, nicked for ringing motors, invalid insurance, invalid MOT and anything else they can think of, and the trike'll be crushed.
the days of bunging any old reg plate on anything are gone now.
irishbiker
30-08-2011, 09:36 AM
See that's why I was asking the 'silly' questions. For my next Project I'm building a trike. I'm also using a vintage frame. What I plan to do is bolt on the extra frame mods, i.e. in no way modify the frame so I can keep and use the original paperwork.
I had also thought about using an old C15 frame and paperwork but to have a C15 with a 850cc I thought would just be asking for trouble. So I have other plans for the BSA after the trike is finished :)
happybiker
30-08-2011, 01:19 PM
When registering a trike, the person can call it anything they want. I wouldn't make any decision untill I could read the V5c. If the log book says it's a modified vehicle then there is little possibility of any problems as many examiners wouldn't have a clue as to what parts were used . It also depends when the conversion was carried out. Before 2003, probably ok. After then, decidedly dodgy. It's all in the paperwork.
C15 with an 850 motor? so what? The law allows changes of engine size, I ran a B33 sidecar outfit with a hillman imp engine in for a couple of years in the early 1970's and never had any problems. Get the all paperwork right and we can do many things over here that are outlawed in the rest of Europe.
devon-tony
30-08-2011, 01:24 PM
yes in theory they could have called it a BSA when registering it, but if that was the case then the date of registration would have been far newer than the actual reg date, and the tax exempt clause would be a bit unlikely to remain with it since its so heavily and obviously modified, in fact theres nothing of a BSA there, except the VIN LOL
it is indeed a seriously dodgy ground at the moment, I for one wouldnt buy a trike or even a chop right now unless the V5 clearly states a different make and model to any standard machines, or ideally its on a Q plate
irishbiker
30-08-2011, 01:55 PM
If I had gone with the C15, the frame would have needed some serious mods to fit the engine - I thought it would be more bother than its worth especially as I want to keep the paperwork, that's why I've gone with a different frame. If I bolt on the trike bits will I have to get it inspected? Also if I go with the bolt on option can I get the classification changed to tricycle and still keep the vintage plate?
If I had gone with the C15, the frame would have needed some serious mods to fit the engine
any structural mods to the main cradle, (excluding welding on small tabs etc, for, say, a bolt on hardtail), means MSVA and 'Q' plate.
simples.
John Hopkins
30-08-2011, 09:48 PM
Someone has bid £2,500 of their hard earned money for it, probably someone who has no idea there might be a problem..
seems a shame, but how many first time trike buyers would realise there is something wrong with it.
John.
What is this, a cop forum...???
Pablo
01-09-2011, 06:24 PM
It could be registered for a rider who's a registered invalid, that would make it tax exempt!
The buyer will have to re-register it for a none invalid rider.
barnacleben
08-11-2011, 10:08 PM
As a new dude to this ere forum and the dark world of trikes I would be totally lost in whats the right build, whats dangerous, how to find a decent builder who's not gonna charge the friggin earth. I ride bikes but would like to get a trike aswell. the prices are feckin well over the top, shit how comes? yeah yeah I know it's only worth what somebody is gonna pay, but 2k to me on a low wage is a hell of alot of money, so when I do get one I'd be totally fecked off if it turned out to be a pile of shite, any advice into the ways of buying a decent trike please feel free to enlighten me
biggus mickus
09-11-2011, 10:44 AM
Probably the best way to find out if a certain trike (or bike/welder/tyre etc) is worth looking at, is to put details on here and get opinions/advice from people who've been there before.
There are plenty of well meaning types here, who don't want to see anyone being ripped off by unscrupilous sharks and will give you their 2p worth for free.
For £2K (or much less) I would expect to get a fully legal, sound and decent Reliant trike. But it all depends on what style of trike you're looking for.
If you're in any doubt as to the legality of any vehicle, just ask on here. We have builders, traders, MOT testers and DVLA experts all willing to share their knowlege with you for free!
Cheers, Mick.:thumbu:
happybiker
09-11-2011, 11:38 AM
Probably the best way to find out if a certain trike (or bike/welder/tyre etc) is worth looking at, is to put details on here and get opinions/advice from people who've been there before.
There are plenty of well meaning types here, who don't want to see anyone being ripped off by unscrupilous sharks and will give you their 2p worth for free.
For £2K (or much less) I would expect to get a fully legal, sound and decent Reliant trike. But it all depends on what style of trike you're looking for.
If you're in any doubt as to the legality of any vehicle, just ask on here. We have builders, traders, MOT testers and DVLA experts all willing to share their knowlege with you for free!
Cheers, Mick.:thumbu:
Good post and sound advice Mick. there are some really crap built trikes out there but legality (as opposed to lethality) all depends on the paperwork . If that's correct, then the trike is legal for all intents and purposes . Construction problems can always be solved, incorrect paperwork can be big problems.
There also seems to be a lot of confusion over VIN's. these numbers did not become standard until about 1981 so any vehicle registered before then will not have one , only an engine number and frame number. Some countries only used an engine number before then and importers usually stamped this on the frame to satisfy UK requirements. I've seen quite a few bikes (usually Soviet ones) with no numbers stamped on at all from new.
devon-tony
09-11-2011, 11:44 AM
right now is a good time to buy a trike, look carefully and be prepared to travel, you should bag a bargain
ebay is a good source as its so widely known and used
sift through the crap and there are some bargains to be had
I saw a few bike trikes, (not my taste or standard) but registered properly, and up and running, all 3 went for £800-£1400
johnzx6
09-11-2011, 06:00 PM
in my opinion,if you want your first trike,go for a conversion,
i built mine using a gs850,built a swingarm,sent the log book away
adding 35kg to the vehical weight,changed the taxation class,
added before and after pic's and got the book back within a month,
totally legal,i think you have to walk before you can run.
cheer's,john.
for god's sake DO NOT go for a swingarm conversion!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:
the original frame was NOT designed to take the stresses imposed by bunging a fekkin' gert axle in the back of it!!!!!
it's a fatal accident waiting to happen.
yes, i know there are some out there that seem ok, but don't do it!! it's not safe.
devon-tony
09-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Hey Rob. Sometimes its like your talking to yourself. Had the same arguements with 2local guys. Both told me i know fuck all. Hey maybe they right but common sense logic and simple physics dont lie lol
Had the same arguements with 2local guys. Both told me i know fuck all.
darwinism will sort it out m8. :thumbsu:
harry
09-11-2011, 10:12 PM
darwinism will sort it out m8. :thumbsu:
Yeah maybe but the more of these accidents in waitiing are about the more ammunition it gives to those who want to put an end to custom bikes.
Build them safe and legal or they may take our ball away.
for god's sake DO NOT go for a swingarm conversion!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:
the original frame was NOT designed to take the stresses imposed by bunging a fekkin' gert axle in the back of it!!!!!
it's a fatal accident waiting to happen.
yes, i know there are some out there that seem ok, but don't do it!! it's not safe.
I think there a hell of a lot of folk out there who would disagree with you ...
I think there a hell of a lot of folk out there who would disagree with you ...
well they'd be wrong, wouldn't they. :rolleyes:
no offence nik, but much as i respect you magazine editing skills, i certainly wouldn't be taking any engineering advice from you.
perhaps those "hell of a lot of folk" would care to explain why they think it's ok, other than for their own financial gain????
well they'd be wrong, wouldn't they. :rolleyes:
no offence nik, but much as i respect you magazine editing skills, i certainly wouldn't be taking any engineering advice from you.
perhaps those "hell of a lot of folk" would care to explain why they think it's ok, other than for their own financial gain????
None taken, mate, but in this case I think you couldn't be more wrong. I know people with conversions who've been riding them for donkeys' years without mishap. Hardly a fatal accident waiting to happen ...
I have the greatest respect for your engineering skills, but in this case you know better than every other trike engineer in the country, do you? Somehow I doubt that ...
devon-tony
10-11-2011, 09:12 AM
the original frame was NOT designed to take the stresses imposed by bunging a fekkin' gert axle in the back of it!!!!!
every one has their own opinion on the matter, but Robs statement is totally correct
Ive ridden a few of them swingarm trikes, none ever handled very well.
he is spot on that the bike frame was designed to have the swingarm rotate around the pivot point, theres no twisting force at all in the original design. the only force imposed on the swingarm mount is from the drive chain tension.
take a steel tube 5 foot long, hold it in the middle with your hands a few inches apart, then get someone either end of the tube to move it about, thats the forces that the bike frame is trying to deal with, simple leverage.
all the ones I have seen either end up splitting the swingarm, or the swingarm is built so solid and heavy that the forces are transferred to the frame and bearings, thus knocking out the bearings VERY quickly
I stand by my belief also that the only way a trike should be built is either hardtail, or IRS. I love a good looking IRS
but in all honesty I am more than happy riding a well built hardtail, with its predictable handling.
discussion and difference of opinions is a good thing :thumbsu:
every one has their own opinion on the matter, but Robs statement is totally correct
Ive ridden a few of them swingarm trikes, none ever handled very well.
And I've ridden loads, mate, probably more than fifty now and the majority of them were perfectly fine. One of them, built by the guy who designed the Trike Shop and Trike Design back ends, was so easy to ride that I kept relaxing me grip on the 'bars until I was steering it at 70mph with one finger.
The only ones I've ever ridden that don't handle well are the ones that haven't had the front end modified as well. In that case, yes, they can be terrifying, but to say all swingarm trikes are deathtraps just isn't true.
:)
devon-tony
10-11-2011, 09:26 AM
ah, I wasnt talking about that part, I dont have the experience to make comments such as that, but my engineering background does make me see the problems I discussed
I have only ridden the type thats just got a converted rear, invariably they have added loads of sprung weight with boxes and seats, car battery etc, this results in a seesaw action on the suspension, changing front geometry and a very scary ride LOL
ok, perhaps they/you could explain to me how sticking a 5 foot lever into the back of a bike frame specifically designed NOT to have a 5 foot lever in the back of it is ok?
if you hit a brick, (for example), on a bike, even if it's with the side of the tyre, the leverage is only about 3" max. this amount of twisting stress, (with a saftey margin), is built into the design of the frame.
now fit an axle, and hit the same brick. the axle pivots about the other contact patch, about 5' away, twisting the swingarm pivot area of the frame with forces far in excess of it's design loading.
try undoing a stubborn nut with a 3" spanner, then put a 5' breaker bar on it and see how much more force you can apply....
3" x 4 = 1'.
1' x 5 = 5'.
4 x 5 = 20.
you're applying 20 times more leverage....
i'm damn sure bike manufacturers don't build in a redundancy factor of 20 into their frame designs.....
therefore it will fail at some point.
it might not be before the trike goes out of use, but it will happen..... would you take the risk?? or advise others to??
i have turned away literally dozens of potential customers who want 'bolt on' swing arm trike conversions. i won't do them because they will fail at some point.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/flumpkins/SAM_1225.jpg
Sorry, rob, I don't agree - as I said I know folk who've run swingarm trikes for donkeys and racked up good mileage on 'em and they've never broken.
If they're so dangerous, best you ring Hank and Haydn and tell them so - I think you'll find they'll just laugh.
Besides which, there's a risk like that involved with any modified vehicle. There's always a chance that anything can fail - be it a trike, a chop, a streetfighter, anything. I've heard of a lot of chops that have broken their frames too - are you going to tell people not to do them too?
harry
10-11-2011, 11:43 AM
The way I see it a swing arm conversion is not a good engineering solution.
If done by someone who understands that and builds it like a bridge and using the correct materials it will handle well, and not fail in a reasonable lifetime.
However because it's the easiest and cheapest way of building a trike it attracts those builders who may be well meaning, but don't understand the stress inherent in the design.
That's why I would always tell a newby to avoid them. If you don't know what to look for you could buy a death trap.
The fact that summat handles well don't mean it can't break. Just look at F1 cars, fantastic road holding but little reserve strength.
biggus mickus
10-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Rob, I see your reasoning but you haven't taken into account the fact that the front part of the frame will just lean over, way before it's subjected to 20 x the turning force.
If you don't want to build one, then fair enough. But show me several properly fabricated ones that have failed in use and I'll agree with you.
Cheers, Mick.:thumbu:
If they're so dangerous, best you ring Hank and Haydn and tell them so - I think you'll find they'll just laugh.
the trike shop build and sell swing arm trike conversions that bolt directly into an unmodified bike frame???
i'm suprised.
Rob, I see your reasoning but you haven't taken into account the fact that the front part of the frame will just lean over, way before it's subjected to 20 x the turning force.
the initial forces, applied in fractions of a second before the frame starts to move, will be huge, and way beyond the design spec of the original bike frame.
hit enough bricks/pot-hole, and it will fail.
[edit]think about how much energy it will take to accelerate 1/4 of a ton of trike violently up and to the side almost instantly as it hits the obstruction, then think about where those forces are travelling...[end edit]
maybe not in a week, maybe not in a year, or 5 years, but it will....
and i don't want my name on something that i know will fail sooner or later, due to bad design. if others do, that's up to them.
There's always a chance that anything can fail - be it a trike, a chop, a streetfighter, anything. I've heard of a lot of chops that have broken their frames too - are you going to tell people not to do them too?
you're missing the point, nik. anything of a mechanical nature can/will fail, chop frames included.
the fitting of an axle on a swingarm into an unmodified bike frame, as in my sketch above, is a badly engineered, badly thought out solution to a loophole in the MSVA regs, and nothing more.
the trike shop build and sell swing arm trike conversions that bolt directly into an unmodified bike frame???
i'm suprised.
No, they don't, rob, nobody does that. They all take the swingarm out and replace it with a fabricated system that converts the swingarm back end into a trike and you said:
for god's sake DO NOT go for a swingarm conversion!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:
the original frame was NOT designed to take the stresses imposed by bunging a fekkin' gert axle in the back of it!!!!!
it's a fatal accident waiting to happen.
yes, i know there are some out there that seem ok, but don't do it!! it's not safe.
You can't start changing the definition of the terms now. :D
No, they don't, rob, nobody does that. They all take the swingarm out and replace it with a fabricated system that converts the swingarm back end into a trike and you said:
You can't start changing the definition of the terms now. :D
i'm not m8, perhaps you should re-read it.....
i said;
the trike shop build and sell swing arm trike conversions that bolt directly into an unmodified bike frame???
i'm suprised.
you said;
No, they don't, rob, nobody does that. They all take the swingarm out and replace it with a fabricated system that converts the swingarm back end into a trike.
which is exactly what i said. *facepalm smilie*
the issue is the swingarm pivot area of the original, standard frame not being designed to take the hugely increased stresses imposed by a swingarm trike conversion. the design of the replacement swing arm is not the point, though i have seen some where an axle has just been welded onto a standard swingarm.....:eek::eek:
[edit]
and i stand by my original statement, any trike with a rear suspension system based on the design in my sketch above, (i.e. a swingarm conversion), that bolts directly into an unmodifed, standard bike frame is inherently unsafe. i would not ride one or build one, and i would not reccomend anyone else does either.
you can argue on behalf of third parties all you like nik, i know i'm right.
i'm not m8, perhaps you should re-read it.....
i said;
the trike shop build and sell swing arm trike conversions that bolt directly into an unmodified bike frame???
i'm suprised.
you said;
No, they don't, rob, nobody does that. They all take the swingarm out and replace it with a fabricated system that converts the swingarm back end into a trike.
which is exactly what i said. *facepalm smilie*
the issue is the swingarm pivot area of the original, standard frame not being designed to take the hugely increased stresses imposed by a swingarm trike conversion. the design of the replacement swing arm is not the point, though i have seen some where an axle has just been welded onto a standard swingarm.....:eek::eek:
[edit]
and i stand by my original statement, any trike with a rear suspension system based on the design in my sketch above, (i.e. a swingarm conversion), that bolts directly into an unmodifed, standard bike frame is inherently unsafe. i would not ride one or build one, and i would not reccomend anyone else does either.
you can argue on behalf of third parties all you like nik, i know i'm right.
We'll agree to disagree on that point then, won't we? :)
devon-tony
10-11-2011, 07:06 PM
ah good, now we can all play nicely :)
themanfromporlock
11-11-2011, 07:55 PM
I see Peter with his new business is flogging mystery trikes :confused: sorry, Mystery Trikes and, as I know nothing about trikes (or much else) I looked at the technical page for them.
The heart of the conversion seems to be two of these plates, bolted or welded to your swingarm
http://www.mysterydesigns.com/bikes/Swingarm.jpg
and then you bolt X000 quids worth of this to the bracket
http://www.mysterydesigns.com/images/RearSu2.jpg
Simples.
Want one for Christmas, Rob?
harry
11-11-2011, 10:10 PM
I haven't done MSVA testing for some time now.
But I wouldn't pass that.
However Chris's opinion is what counts.
that, IMHO, is dangerous, but hey, what do i know.....
themanfromporlock
12-11-2011, 12:35 AM
Look at it from the point of view of the swingarm and its bearings.
There you are, happily bobbing up or down, designed by a Japanese committee to hold one wheel in place and a chain or driveshaft to it. Go round a corner and the forces acting on you stay roughly in the same plane as the bike leans over. Only if the twat riding you clips a kerb do you feel major sideways pressure.
Get rid of the central wheel, stick two fucking great car tyres 5 foot apart, join them up with a big chunk of solid metal and go round a fast corner.
The forces acting on the bearings and swingarm are coming from a new direction and if i could do the sums, I bet they'd be huge on a big trike.
Fuck that for a game of soldiers.
addjunkie
13-11-2011, 09:55 AM
That axle is kind of sexy in a shiney billet sort to of way. would look great in a hard tail on off frame.
But the swing arm.......nah as an engineer it just dont look right, its like a hooker in a chastity belt. legs closed, too close together etc. no triangulation.
Then take a close look at the bearings they look like speherical bearings to me, or is it my eyes.
I'm with Rob on this one espescially when an axle is lobbed on the end of a 25year old jap frame. Im actually looking at doing a harley trike at the moment, and have looked at a few of these back ends, looking for ideas to copy, but for me a triangulated IRS set up, is the only way to go.
droid
13-11-2011, 12:51 PM
Anyone that doubts what rob is on about needs to revise the Law of Moments.
harry
13-11-2011, 02:59 PM
Yup that axle sure looks pretty. Nice machining.
There is another problem as well as the strength of the swing arm.
The MSVA manual in line with the euro regs says:-
Note. The braking devices must act on brake surfaces permanently connected to the
wheels either rigidly or through components unlikely to fail. A chain is considered to be
a component likely to fail, as are sprockets.
Looks like the brake disc operates on the diff. and therefore shouldn't pass the test.
If you're gonna make summat similar best check with Chris first.
addjunkie
14-11-2011, 08:55 AM
Note. The braking devices must act on brake surfaces permanently connected to the
wheels either rigidly or through components unlikely to fail. A chain is considered to be
a component likely to fail, as are sprockets.
Looks like the brake disc operates on the diff. and therefore shouldn't pass the test.
If you're gonna make summat similar best check with Chris first.
I asked a queston on the thread in the workshop section, but Chris hasnt answered it, is there another way to easily contact him.
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