Club patch ban in USA

[Simon B]

Just read this and thought Id share it

Editorials:

The First Banning of an MCs Colors in the USA


BY: LJ James

USA - The First Banning of a Motorcycle Clubs Colors in the USA If you are a Member of a Motorcycle Club as I am, I'm sure you have heard about how a Judge has banned the Colors of the the Mongols Motorcycle Club. Not only are the Members not allowed to wear their Colors, but any item that's has their Colors on it must be forfeited upon demand. I can not expect many who are not in a Motorcycle Club to understand what this really means! Twenty years ago this would have struck fear into the soul of every American Citizen! Today I am sure most probably will not even hear about it and those that do will probably not care! What has happen to this Country? I can not believe this is actually happening, I have been writing stories on this for years. Part of me had always hoped I was just being paranoid or that all the MCs would some how come together on some level and work out the problems. I have been getting emails on how the Story I wrote last year called "Taken from a History book in the year 2095" does not sound so far fetched any more? Are there Criminals in Motorcycle Clubs? We hear about Drug dealers, Rapists, Murderers in the National Football League and in Major League Baseball everyday. When was the last time you heard of a Biker running a Dogfighting ring? Can a Judge just ban the Logo of a Sports Franchise if its Members are involved in some kind of Criminal activity? You may be saying No because its different. Well I say it is only different because they haven't done it yet! There are the same problems in Motorcycle Clubs that there are in all organizations. The Police force has much more Criminal Activity going on in it then all the Motorcycle Clubs put together! Only Difference is they can bury the Truth! When it comes to Motorcycle Clubs and criminal activity the big difference is, The legend of Motorcycle Clubs is we are America's bad boys and it just sells so dam good. This law can not be allowed to stand!!! I am sure some Sport Bike Clubs and AMA Club's feel they have nothing to fear! I am sure many are thinking this has nothing to do with them, Its only the Outlaw and 1% Clubs! They are thinking this isn't about us "we are the good guys". This always happens this way, take down the top level's first! The other levels will make excuses as to why it is not their fight and stand aside. All Bikers must join the fight now because once they are done with the Outlaw and 1% Clubs, Who do you think they will be looking at Next? Once the Outlaw/ 1% Clubs are gone there will be no one left to come and help when they come for you! I am pretty sure this is still America and this is completely against everything this Country was founded on and stands for! We all must ask, If this ruling is allowed to stand what Motorcycle Club will it be next? Will it be yours? What will the reasons be that they will use to ban your Clubs patch ? Will Jay walking be enough? Is that too ridiculous? How about if your an MC member and you get caught with a bag of weed? Is that enough? Will there have to be two Members involved? Three? What reason will they need to ban your Motorcycle Clubs patch? When Motorcycle Clubs start having their Colors banned many members will start or join new Clubs,Because that is what we are Motorcycle Club Members! Soon the government will realize this and then Ban Motorcycle Clubs all together! Any one who thinks their Club is not at risk is kidding themselves! The time to unite and try to work together was yesterday! Today we have no choice but to ban together and fight for our right to survive for tomorrow it will be time to hide!!! Even if some how all Motorcycle Clubs can come together and work to win this fight, It is just the beginning and there will be many more rounds to come. If we are to win this fight we MUST at least make it threw the first round, Then we will have a Minute to pull ourselves together!!! I am Your Bro L.J. James AmericanBikerX.com

[shaggy696969]

So what are they going to do with Tattoo's Most "Club" members I know have their colours in their skin too.
This banning has been predicted for a long time and yes it will target the 3 patch clubs. It's a case of the Biggest kid in the fight gets taken to the headmaster first as he should be setting an example.
This certainly isn't the first example of this, the HA was persecuted in the states before having clubhouses shut down and demolished at random and the police outlawing the clubs activitys, as with Australia in some sectors trying to outlaw clubs.
I cannot imagine the law will be allowed to get away with it for long and it's not the first time a judge has over-reacted.

For example Taken from Bikernews.net


http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/THUMPERRRR/WEIRD%20BIKES%20ALBUM/0653068800.jpg

Australia - AUSTRALIA'S most notorious bikie gangs have united in an unprecedented display of solidarity to flout new anti-bikie laws.


Freedom to associate ... rival gang members have joined together to protest anti-bikie laws. Picture: Matt Turner

About 700 members of gangs - including the Hells Angels, Gypsy Jokers, Rebels, Finks and Descendants - today taunted the South Australian Government for enacting laws which effectively outlaw their clubs.
The gangs united in a protest against the laws, converging at Gawler, north of Adelaide, before riding through the state's famed wine growing region, the Barossa Valley.

Describing the laws as un-Australian, the bikies literally stood arm-in-arm with their traditional foes before the protest run, overseen by a massive police presence.

SA Premier Mike Rann described the protest as a publicity stunt which would not intimidate his Government.

"I will not bend or break because of this intimidation," Mr Rann said.

"The run only strengthens my resolve to take the fight up to these gangs."

Mr Rann described SA's Serious and Organised Crime Control Act, enacted last September, as "the world's toughest anti-bikie legislation". The laws are designed to dismantle criminal bikie gangs by declaring illegal the membership or association with individual clubs, which have been outlawed.

The Gypsy Jokers organised today's action, which a club spokesman said was a "peaceful protest and legal protest". The spokesman, who did not want to be named, said the laws "take away the human and civil rights of society - not to just bikies but to anyone and everyone, and any group or organisation that the Government decides or perceives as a threat".

"It won't stop the bikie. We are no different in everyday life to people in other clubs as football clubs, cricket clubs and so on," he said.

"There is good and bad in all walks of life - even the police, judges, press commit crimes.

"Should we impose non-association laws on these associations?

"The Government would have you believe through politics and fear that you should worry about us raping, pillaging, plundering ... while allowing them to take away the rights of people.

"These laws are just not Australian."

But Mr Rann said the protest, dubbed The Freedom Run, was "trying to convince other states not to follow us, it's about intimidation".

"For them, freedom means freedom to manufacture and sell drugs to our kids, it means freedom to be involved in violence, freedom to use illegal firearms and freedom to extort," he said.

"There are elements among these bikies who are dangerous and serious criminals and we will treat them as seriously as they deserve.

"I will not now, nor will I ever, apologise for the strong action this Government has taken."

Opponents of the laws have officially registered a political party, the FREE Australia Party, which was represented at the protest.

[John Hopkins]

As I see it the Mongols are a group set up in the 70s by immigrants (Mexicans) because they were not allowed to ride with the Hells Angels. A lot of street gangs in the states terrorise their community and because they wear colours, bandanas, cut offs, tee shirts and tattoos are easily identified, a large percentage of these are hispanic, the states have started a very slow and sparodic clean up of these gangs, hindered by the fact that money from their dealings and fear put into witnesses puts most of them back on the street within hours. So in some towns anyone wearing gang coulours is harrassed. The leader of the Mongols along with 60 members of his club were arrested on various charges and if they hadn't been the ordinary members of the community would have suffered. I wonder how many of those arrested were illegal immigrants and how we would feel if a group of Muslim bikers started a club in this country and sold drugs, prostitutes, and used guns.

These people were just thugs who happened to ride bikes.

John

[rob]

Just read this and thought Id share it

Editorials:

The First Banning of an MCs Colors in the USA


BY: LJ James

USA - The First Banning of a Motorcycle Clubs Colors in the USA If you are a Member of a Motorcycle Club as I am, I'm sure you have heard about how a Judge has banned the Colors of the the Mongols Motorcycle Club.
Not only are the Members not allowed to wear their Colors, but any item that's has their Colors on it must be forfeited upon demand. I can not expect many who are not in a Motorcycle Club to understand what this really means!

Twenty years ago this would have struck fear into the soul of every American Citizen! Today I am sure most probably will not even hear about it and those that do will probably not care! What has happen to this Country? I can not believe this is actually happening, I have been writing stories on this for years. Part of me had always hoped I was just being paranoid or that all the MCs would some how come together on some level and work out the problems.

I have been getting emails on how the Story I wrote last year called "Taken from a History book in the year 2095" does not sound so far fetched any more? Are there Criminals in Motorcycle Clubs? We hear about Drug dealers, Rapists, Murderers in the National Football League and in Major League Baseball everyday. When was the last time you heard of a Biker running a Dogfighting ring? Can a Judge just ban the Logo of a Sports Franchise if its Members are involved in some kind of Criminal activity? You may be saying No because its different.

Well I say it is only different because they haven't done it yet! There are the same problems in Motorcycle Clubs that there are in all organizations. The Police force has much more Criminal Activity going on in it then all the Motorcycle Clubs put together! Only Difference is they can bury the Truth! When it comes to Motorcycle Clubs and criminal activity the big difference is, The legend of Motorcycle Clubs is we are America's bad boys and it just sells so dam good.

This law can not be allowed to stand!!! I am sure some Sport Bike Clubs and AMA Club's feel they have nothing to fear! I am sure many are thinking this has nothing to do with them, Its only the Outlaw and 1% Clubs! They are thinking this isn't about us "we are the good guys". This always happens this way, take down the top level's first! The other levels will make excuses as to why it is not their fight and stand aside. All Bikers must join the fight now because once they are done with the Outlaw and 1% Clubs, Who do you think they will be looking at Next? Once the Outlaw/ 1% Clubs are gone there will be no one left to come and help when they come for you!

I am pretty sure this is still America and this is completely against everything this Country was founded on and stands for! We all must ask, If this ruling is allowed to stand what Motorcycle Club will it be next? Will it be yours? What will the reasons be that they will use to ban your Clubs patch ? Will Jay walking be enough? Is that too ridiculous? How about if your an MC member and you get caught with a bag of weed? Is that enough? Will there have to be two Members involved? Three? What reason will they need to ban your Motorcycle Clubs patch? When Motorcycle Clubs start having their Colors banned many members will start or join new Clubs,Because that is what we are Motorcycle Club Members!

Soon the government will realize this and then Ban Motorcycle Clubs all together! Any one who thinks their Club is not at risk is kidding themselves! The time to unite and try to work together was yesterday! Today we have no choice but to ban together and fight for our right to survive for tomorrow it will be time to hide!!! Even if some how all Motorcycle Clubs can come together and work to win this fight, It is just the beginning and there will be many more rounds to come. If we are to win this fight we MUST at least make it threw the first round, Then we will have a Minute to pull ourselves together!!! I am Your Bro L.J. James AmericanBikerX.com

there, thats better. ;):D

[Grav]

If the legal representatives of the various clubs/organisations affected by these proposals have not filed a law suit then they are slipping.

A swift bit of research suggests that any such law banning MC Club members from wearing their patches could be breaching their Freedom of Association and Freedom of Assembly rights as stated in the First Amendment of the constitution of the good ole U.S. of A.

There is also a suggestion that the proposed Law could be in breach of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. An internationally recognised treaty to which the good ole U.S. of A signed.

So, will they breach their own constitution by implementing this law? I reckon they would.

[eigerton]

the US State don't give a fuck for anyone or anything if it doesn't suit them

[Nufkamp]

Not much different to NuLabour then......

[shaggy696969]

Not much different to NuLabour then......

And an alternative would be .................... :confused:

[Nufkamp]

Pass.
The last lot I voted for were the Natural Law party many years back. I dont vote now cos none of the available choices appeal to me.

[hacky]

no laws against the crips and bloods though...there far bigger than most ....
...:mad::mad:

[Simon B]

As I see it the Mongols are a group set up in the 70s by immigrants (Mexicans) because they were not allowed to ride with the Hells Angels. A lot of street gangs in the states terrorise their community and because they wear colours, bandanas, cut offs, tee shirts and tattoos are easily identified, a large percentage of these are hispanic, the states have started a very slow and sparodic clean up of these gangs, hindered by the fact that money from their dealings and fear put into witnesses puts most of them back on the street within hours. So in some towns anyone wearing gang coulours is harrassed. The leader of the Mongols along with 60 members of his club were arrested on various charges and if they hadn't been the ordinary members of the community would have suffered. I wonder how many of those arrested were illegal immigrants and how we would feel if a group of Muslim bikers started a club in this country and sold drugs, prostitutes, and used guns.

These people were just thugs who happened to ride bikes.

John

John your facts about the Mongols arent correct, you'll find they where a mainly white club when they started, they have a lot of mexicans in now as they have a lot of ''Street gang members''
Dont get me wrong I AM NO FAN OF THEM,but you have to wonder what sort of precidence this will make?
And this thread has FUCK ALL to do with muslims, and if you cant see the implications of what is happening in Australia, now starting in Amreica its a shame.
Started the thread as I thought it would be of interest to bikers, and not to do with who you vote for, what colour someones skin is or what religion they follow

[kitkat]

This thread will go on forever , fact is the Australian goverment seems its fed up with different factions of the biking community , for whatever reason fighting amongst itself , and in some cases members of the public being harmed in the process , so maybe guilty by association , why cant they all get along , then these things maybe would not happen .
Seems we are all bikers , with one common intrest MOTORCYCLES , but even that is dogged with the P word , so now its goverment P who will step in , just a observasion maybe im wrong .

[Nufkamp]

The reason I bought up the gubbermint is that it's gubbermints that pass these draconian and utterly outrageous laws. I do not know what the answer is to stopping them, as voting one party out has proved in the past to be simply changing the colour of the tie worn by the incumbent of no 10.

[Simon B]

This section below from one the Gypsy Jokers sums it all up very well.


"It won't stop the bikie. We are no different in everyday life to people in other clubs as football clubs, cricket clubs and so on," he said.

"There is good and bad in all walks of life - even the police, judges, press commit crimes.

"Should we impose non-association laws on these associations?

"The Government would have you believe through politics and fear that you should worry about us raping, pillaging, plundering ... while allowing them to take away the rights of people.


Think about the way bankers have royally fecked up so many countries and done far more harm on a very wide scale, do laws get passed against them? no the government lends them money. I am by no means saying that MC clubs are full of all wonderful law abiding people that have never done anything wrong, BUT there are certain organisations around the world that would like it very much if the general public thought every member was a threat to society.

[shaggy696969]

The similarity's in whats going on is why I posted it Si. Bike clubs are easy to pick on cos they are easy to spot, Summat to do with the way they show their colours, therefore a easy target. Just using the term "Outlaw Biker" to describe 1% clubs is not doing themselves any favours as most would assume its because the clubs operate outside the law. Whilst that may look like a simplistic view remember this is the general populous thats viewing it, and they have no reason to think otherwise.

[TektroG]

My view is that this type of legislation will soon be coming to these shores. The recent past has put a couple of the major clubs in the public eye for the wrong reasons, and it would be easy to for politicians to smear them on the basis of this. I think the HA were exceptionally lucky to be able to hold the Bulldog this year, in the light of all the other events that were cancelled, and I think they and the other clubs need to concentrate on cultivating the local support with the general public, and a bit less on promoting the outlaw image.
As I understand it, since the death of Maz Harris they have disengaged from MAG, and there is some distrust on either side. The fact remains that MAG, no matter what anyone's personal views on it or its leadership, is the single most effective organisation for representing issues concerning bikers to politicians. Perhaps some of these clubs would be wise to consider choosing a well respected member to represent their interests and engage with such organisations.
I guess the alternative will be difficulties for their membership in associating, and some hefty legal fees defending individual actions.

[snobal]

If you're gonna dance, ya gotta pay the fiddler.

[pyro]

Bikers are being targeted because we are a visible and high profile target, more crime is done in the back streets of the Stonebridge park estate than by the whole of the biking community in London.

The biking community in this country does have a much lower profile than other countries, not really sure why this is, but we are still the subject of the full force of hate from anyone who takes a dislike to us. The main problem that we, as bikers have, is that we are mostly loners, there are no really big clubs or organisations with enough clout to really stand up for us, the BMF are mostly bank managers now with their own agenda and MAG seems to have lost the plot and faded into the background.

The ordinary bloke in the street does not understand us, in fact in the words of one 'bloke' "You're like pikeys aint yer!" this makes it easy to attack us, anything that is not really understood is easy to make into a threat. THe only way to counter this is to stand up together, but that may not be enough anymore, witness the 'No to bike parking fees' in Westminster, the council have started lying and using smear tactics to counter a ver credible threat to an unfair tax on the biker. They did not expect the reaction they got, but I notice that the first 'bikers' that stood up to fight this were not 'hardcore' just ordinary blokes who use their bikes for getting to work and a load of scooter riders (and some very pretty girls which surprised me! plus a few actors and famous people) but they are being smeared as 'bikers' who have committed acts of vandalism and threatened councilors, no evidence has been produced for any of the allegations, and publicity has actually for once been very good.
This has not stopped the council officers making allegations that are plainly ridiculous, but important people are listening to them, people who make laws and set policy, if this little area wins in getting the charges as a legit fee, then the other councils around the country waiting in the wings will use the prescedent to charge for bike in their areas as well.

Now this may seem like small beans in comparison to banning patches, but its where it all starts, they chip away a bit at a time, "Look they let that slide, maybe they will this as well!" bit by bit our freedoms are being eroded, not just as bikers, but as supposedly free men.

If all bikers rose up and protested EVeRYTIME we were trod on, THEY would find new targets and leave us alone, but eventually they will find ways to crush us, believe it, it will happen.

[TektroG]

The main problem that we, as bikers have, is that we are mostly loners, there are no really big clubs or organisations with enough clout to really stand up for us, the BMF are mostly bank managers now with their own agenda and MAG seems to have lost the plot and faded into the background.

First point I'd make is what is the corporate side doing - the MCIA? Surely they realise its in their interests to support bikers interests, and to defend against policies that make biking less attractive, and therefore less sales for them. They haven't been exactly vocal from what I can see.

Secondly, I'm interested to hear on what you base your opinions of the riders rights organisations, Pyro. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, just asking why you've formed that opinion.

Regarding your other post, on the bike parking tax, what is the involvement of any of the above in the fight against that?

My personal opinion is that it is the BMF that has lost the plot, and a great deal of support, following internal spats, and that it was always more corporate. IMO MAG represents better grass roots bikers, and with the financial crisis as a number of "motorcyclists" liquidate their toys, the more traditional bikers will continue as before. However I do find it laughable that an organisation that was founded on the principle of "let the rider decide", in opposition to the compulsion to wear helmets, should choose as its corporate logo what? - 2 helmets!!! A triumph of branding over common sense.

[knuckle]

If you're gonna dance, ya gotta pay the fiddler.


Welcome Snobal.

[pyro]

First point I'd make is what is the corporate side doing - the MCIA? Surely they realise its in their interests to support bikers interests, and to defend against policies that make biking less attractive, and therefore less sales for them. They haven't been exactly vocal from what I can see.

I'm not sure what the MCIA are doing, I shall ask and find out.


Secondly, I'm interested to hear on what you base your opinions of the riders rights organisations, Pyro. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, just asking why you've formed that opinion.

Riders rights organisations seem to have faded from the news, they dont seem to have the presence they did. (see below as well)




Regarding your other post, on the bike parking tax, what is the involvement of any of the above in the fight against that?

Used for reference to show that people think we will put up with anything and that there are some of us who do pull together when needed, the point of it was to show that most of the riders showing up and protesting are commuters
not your conventional biker image. Getting 'real' bikers to protest is very difficult in any respect, politicians know this, we very rarely turn out in force for anything.


My personal opinion is that it is the BMF that has lost the plot, and a great deal of support, following internal spats, and that it was always more corporate. IMO MAG represents better grass roots bikers, and with the financial crisis as a number of "motorcyclists" liquidate their toys, the more traditional bikers will continue as before. However I do find it laughable that an organisation that was founded on the principle of "let the rider decide", in opposition to the compulsion to wear helmets, should choose as its corporate logo what? - 2 helmets!!! A triumph of branding over common sense.

The BMF is a joke, the image it portrays is of an organisation of BMW riding bank managers, which is fine if they want to represent just that portion, but they say they represent all bikers... yeah right.

MAG has problems of its own, to be honest clinging onto the helmet issue is ridiculous, that part of the law will never change, and the logo as far as I am concerned shows that. Whenever I come across MAG stands at show etc they seem more concerned in signing up members than anything else.
MAG also seems to have become slightly elitist as well. The image they portray only seems to appeal to a small group of bikers, they need to revamp thier image badly.


The other thing we have to remember is this, bikers are mostly what they are because they want to be a little bit different we love the adrenaline and the buzz of riding, biking gives us independence from our lives, if we were honest most of us see ourselves as 'bad boys' we love the image.
This image is what alienates us from the citizen in the street and its also whats scares them. Which is why they try to control us in small ways.

[TektroG]

I used to think that clinging onto opposing the helmet law was pointless, but I'm now of the opinion that it represents a fundamental principle - explicitly that the rider should have the freedom to choose. That said I'm a realist and I can't see it changing either.
I'm in agreement about the general apathy of bikers towards politics, one read of this forum would confirm that most of us think they're all pretty much cut from the same cloth, and out to line their own pockets, and there's not much to choose between them. That said "Bikers are voters" is a good slogan, and if we can demonstrate it and hold them to pre-election (whichever one) promises, so much the better.
My argument is that in certain quarters, some of the big clubs have a certain amount of influence, and if they decided to lend some support to some of these campaigns (that are also in their own interests), they could bring in a significant number of bikers. Of course this would need some co-operation between on the scale of what's happening in Australia, and I'm not naive enough to think that in the current climate that's likely to happen in the UK.

[wurzel]

"Bikers are voters" is a good logan, and if we can demonstrate it and hold them to pre-election (whichever one) promises, so much the better..

Boris and London bus lanes for example

[John Hopkins]

Yeah, welcome to the forum snobal, What do you ride and I hope you are good at stirring..

Ride safe.

John

[Simon B]

Been informed that The Mongrol incident happened last October and was in response to a very public killing they where involved in.


But what is happening in Australia is still a very worrying issue

[TektroG]

Meanwhile..... in the UK. Erm yes you can see the parallel.
That's why I think this legislation will be coming here.

[minxy]

Found this on today's news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7957863.stm

[John Hopkins]

I just like riding my bike!

belonging to an MC patch club is a dedication too far for me!

Like religion.

Live and let live and ride safe.

There are enough poeple ready to run down bikers without turning on each other.

Just my thoughts.

John

[TektroG]

I doubt that incident had much if anything to do with riding bikes.

I have to say I quite admire the NCC setup in the UK. They seem to strike a good balance between commitment to the club and maintaining the focus on building and riding highly modified bikes. Not that I know that much, just from casual observation, you understand.

[kitkat]

Good club , :thumbu:

[Taff]

The Oz situation has just been given the fuel to steamroll any anti-biker (bikie...?!??) legislation thru as well, unfortunately.

[TektroG]

Yeah, saw that.
Its seems the police here have been given some pretty extensive powers, mainly as a knee jerk reaction to terrorism, and are prepared to mis-use them to target certain groups. In fact they were criticised the other day in Parliament for doing so. Obviously dealing with the police, is a run of the mill, annoyance for people in your position, but as a fairly long standing member, do you consider its getting worse?

[Taff]

In most of Europe no, i breeze thru every time, travelling as a couple seems to help, though i wouldn't even bother trying Denmark or Finland right now.
The US asked a lot of questions, none directly about my club affiliation, more about what i was doing there, and making sure i was carrying no drugs. was travelling alone, which implies i'm not there to see the sights and get a tan. Not having a criminal record helped i think, though that particular safety net has fallen by the wayside now.
Australia, travelling alone again, put me thru the mill properly, same angle really, though they did quiz me about various patches on my jacket, which they'd not seen before, knew nothing about, and still don't. Photocopied all paperwork, addresses, and numbers i had for contacts over there. But i wouldn't try now, never in a million years.
The terrorist angle has given them powers that previously had been out of their reach, or hard to enact, but now they've got a full reign on doing as they like, under that banner, yes.

[ChopperFXR]

Interesting to see what is happening in other countries, as it does give some indication as to what our authorities may be considering. You can guarantee that there is some pencil neck within our security and police forces looking to see what ideas he can steal to earn himself brownie points here.

Here in the UK the attitude among the majority of bikers is one of "I am not a back patch club member so it is nothing to do with me". History proves that discrimination of a minority leads to widespread descrimination in a very short time.

Look what happened at the Bulldog last year. The police action was instigated by one cop. Assistant Chief Constable Holland of the Warwickshire Constabulary. The police operation went ahead despite local protests from trades people. This was harrassment on a grand scale motivated by spite and political pressure. That political pressure has not gone away. As yet there has been no official police statement as to what they intend to do at any of this years events. (None that I have seen yet anyway).

Joe public is or was once again force fed a media hyped stereo typical image of bikers. NOT just back patch club members, but everybody attending the Bulldog was liable to be stopped and searched, photographed and generally hassled.

That is now history, but just take a moment to think about the long term implications of that police operation. For those people like myself, that felt great anger at the way I was treated by the police, there WAS one legal and official means of registering your feelings. IE: Official complaint to the police. I did a lot of research at the time. I felt the need to do something.

When you make an official complaint about the police in general or an individual officer, you are given a choice of the matter being dealt with "In house" or formally. If you go the route of "In house", nothing is ever going to happen as the police will cover their own arse. If you go the "Formal" route, another force has to investigate the complaint.

OK, so that immediately gives the likes of MAG a weapon to use against the police. If everybody that got stopped at the Bulldog had made an official complaint and demanded formal investigation, the whole system would have ground to a halt. The cops knew that was never going to happen as bikers generally just take what the government throws at us, there are of course exceptions to that.

On an individual level, I thought long and hard about making an official complaint. I had been stopped twice on my way to the Bulldog, within twenty minutes of the first stop I was stopped again. First time I had to produce documents etc etc and was on the wrong end of a cop having a bad day.

Second time I was stopped and made to get out of the van. I was searched, had to give personal details, was photographed by the van's registration plate, face on and profile. The van was searched and I thought all was ok until they found my patch. Then EVERYTHING was taken out of the van and put through an xray machine. Bags were opened etc etc. Boy was I pissed at that. All the time this was going on, I was surrounded by armed cops. I was treeated like I was a major criminal.

I wanted to do something to register my anger. However, I had been photographed and all my details had been logged. So if I make a complaint, it is not rocket science for the cops to tie up my being stopped with the fact that I am a prospect for a back patch club and I am making an official complaint.

Call me paranoid if you like, but how much attention would my club have got had I made the complaint. Try proving that the cops are harrassing you or your friends unlawfully. While you may like the idea of giving the cop that stops you a fat lip, you would be just playing into their hands by doing so.

You now also have to think about what the cops will do if you exercise your legal rights. Remember the cops are always backed by the legal system and the government.

What has been happening in other countries will at some time arrive here. The same powers the cops use to harrass back patch clubs will be used against all and any individual biker.

Chopper.

[shaggy696969]

The Oz situation has just been given the fuel to steamroll any anti-biker (bikie...?!??) legislation thru as well, unfortunately.

Is it Anti biker or Anti Club. ?

Clubs are easy to target, individuals not so easy.

To target Bikers/motorcyclists would alienate a culture and would have implications on civil liberties, but to target Clubs will be seen as doing it for the good of the public. And will be spun as to protect the ordinary motorcyclist, As well as members of the public.

[wurzel]

Not just bikers fallimng foul of legislation meant to fight terrorism. You wouldn't believe this if told it in a pub.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2047870_anglers_anger_at_police_claim

Took place on a lake 100 yards from my house and 10 yards from where the mohawks had a show last year.

[TektroG]

I think that's very interesting what you have got to say there Chopper. I agree that it is not acceptable to target people for membership of a club, unless that organisation is outlawed because it is proven in court to have acted as an organisation, to further terrorist or criminal activities. Circumstantial evidence that some of its members have criminal records or are involved in those activities, is not sufficient justification to take action against any member of the club, purely for being a member. I think that the organisers of the major events should put their weight behind attempts to force the police to justify their actions, as the way they went about it by contacting and scaring landowners and venue owners with hearsay evidence, was reprehensible. If necessary event organisers need to take legal action against venue owners who pull the rug at the last minute, in response to police pressure. The prospect of punitive financial award being made against their business as a result of their failure to abide by a contract may be enough to make them think twice about the validity of the police advice, especially if the event has a long standing record of being well run with no trouble.
I can see why you have passed pretty much unhindered through Europe Taff. Certainly here in France, there are very few establishments that wouldn't welcome bikers, although the awareness of motorcycle clubs is next to zero, and although I imagine an HA patch would be of passing interest, as most clubs here are backpatch in the sense that is where the patch is worn, the public can't distinguish.
It may be worth considering publicising, either by means of flyers at events, or websites, how to officially complain if you are harassed unjustifiably by the police en route to an event. Imagine if the police mounted a similar operation this year at the Bulldog, but with every pre-booked tickets sent out, there was information about how to make an official complaint, record the officers involved's details etc. and this was also widely publicised on site. I wonder how many complaints the police would have received by 2 weeks after the event? Enough to swamp them I'd guess.

[mrbump]

this is no suprise if youve ever spent anytime in america you no that the concept of it being the land of the free is utter bollox

[Dusty]

On an individual level, I thought long and hard about making an official complaint. I had been stopped twice on my way to the Bulldog, within twenty minutes of the first stop I was stopped again.

I wanted to do something to register my anger. However, I had been photographed and all my details had been logged. So if I make a complaint, it is not rocket science for the cops to tie up my being stopped with the fact that I am a prospect for a back patch club and I am making an official complaint.

Call me paranoid if you like, but how much attention would my club have got had I made the complaint. Try proving that the cops are harrassing you or your friends unlawfully.

You now also have to think about what the cops will do if you exercise your legal rights. Remember the cops are always backed by the legal system and the government.


Chopper.

That is exactly what the cops are banking on, and it is working.

For your own reasons, you decided not to complain, but you suggested that MAG should "take it up", so how many others took the same option ? 100s, 1000s, it just puts more power in the cops hands for the next time, the official attitude will be that " we stopped 15,000 people and only got 150 complaints, so the public must be in support of what we are doing"

Too many bikers in this country are their own worst enemy, take the protest in Wales last year, half the people who turned out to protest about harrassment of bikers in Snowdonia, had illegal pipes , small plates etc, how many back patch clubs attended that, very few, because most took the attitude that it was only ' power rangers ' that were having problems.

The only way to fight the laws already being introduced in the states and Oz, happening here, will be for everyone to stand up and be counted.

[Taff]

Second time I was stopped and made to get out of the van. I was searched, had to give personal details, was photographed by the van's registration plate, face on and profile. The van was searched and I thought all was ok until they found my patch. Then EVERYTHING was taken out of the van and put through an xray machine. Bags were opened etc etc. Boy was I pissed at that. All the time this was going on, I was surrounded by armed cops. I was treated like I was a major criminal.
The police who stopped you broke the law.
Under the powers of section 60, under which they claimed to be operating, they have no right whatsoever to photograph you. They have no right to ask for personal details, unless you are the driver of a vehicle, in which case only the usual pull details need be given. They are authorised to search for weapons only, not to look at or read any paperwork, open any wallets, notebooks, or diaries.
Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight, but you were entitled to ask for written details of the search, officer's name, station, reason for search, actually far more than he's entitled to know about you, and to see the paperwork/authority for the search, to see that it's (very limited) active time is still valid. This info is going on our website before this year's Bulldog Bash. We can inconvenience them, as much as they do us.

[Simon B]

Interesting points about the Bulldog. I had been on the site since the Tuesday and left the site at least once a day in the pick up. On the Friday I got a pull. Same as chopper went through everything, they asked if they could take picture of my club shirt, I asked why, they couldnt/wouldnt answer so I said no.
The stop paperwork I ( I cant exactly remember if I signed or not) but said I would send off for my details under freedom of information act.
Now once i contacted Wawks old bill via e-mail I got a letter asking for copy's of two forms of ID and £10 to cover admin. I waited a good few weeks and they sent me through all my details which included:-
Photo of pick up
Photo of me getting out of pick up
Sheet of paper, with where I worked, my phone number, position within club etc.

Now for anyone that thinks OK fare enough, I'm not in a back patch club, its a side patch club, I dont have a criminal record, Ive got a few points on my licence and thats it, I pay my tax's etc etc
Aint it nice to be treated like a suspected terrorist just for attending a motorcycle event?:mad:

[Blue]

Not just motorcycle events for me. Every time I travel to Europe, I get pulled by Customs, questioned on where I'm going/where I've been (and have to prove it), where I've stayed (and, again, have to prove it), who I've visited, and get the car pulled apart and searched. I know exactly why.

[Dusty]

Not just motorcycle events for me. Every time I travel to Europe, I get pulled by Customs, questioned on where I'm going/where I've been (and have to prove it), where I've stayed (and, again, have to prove it), who I've visited, and get the car pulled apart and searched. I know exactly why.

Is it cos you is black :D

[devon-tony]

DUH no its coz she is "Bloo"

[Borg]

Got nicked a few weeks ago. In the station was asked 'Do you belong to any clubs or associations' what type I asked ' you know bike gangs/clubs' Other copper chips in with 'No hes not, not that thats going to matter soon, they won't be showing patches long' I was quite surprised.

[devon-tony]

I cant see how they can do it?

surely if they ban wearing of patches then I would look at whats involved in releasing a clothing line thats only available to selected people :)

if your clothing line is the " biker club " and its branded across the back of your jacket, then what can they do?

its just product branding

try telling bench, nike and all the other chavvy brands that they cant have big logos on the back of their jackets!

If it went through I would love to see a test case in court against football shirts, biggest area of violence, and all about the clothing that they wear!

wonder how the football authorities would see it, huge losses of revenue and public outcry, whats the difference between the 2?

[Borg]

And back in the real world.


They can do whatever they want because no one has the balls to stand up any more (not this maybe but in general) The apathy party will get the most votes yet again.

Thats why I like the French. If they don't like the law they hit the streets and TELL the government what they want.

[Dusty]

I cant see how they can do it?


I would love to see a test case in court against football shirts, biggest area of violence, and all about the clothing that they wear!

?

The people responsible for football violence nowadays, would not be seen dead in a football shirt, nor will you find them with scarves, badges or patches.

[mrbump]

This info is going on our website before this year's Bulldog Bash. We can inconvenience them, as much as they do us.
That would be good im a photographer and have had several collegues that have been stopped when shooting in public with the copper citing the new terror stop and search law as a reason. Even tho he knows its bollox and so do we they still seem to do it.

[The Beer Monsters]

That would be good im a photographer and have had several collegues that have been stopped when shooting in public with the copper citing the new terror stop and search law as a reason. Even tho he knows its bollox and so do we they still seem to do it.
Suggest you search The Register (theregister.co.uk) for some useful photographer/law/terrorism articles

[4_stroke]

On the flip side…..

I was in the US shortly after the Laughlin river shoot out-out in 2002. This is when the Mongols and Hells Angels went at it in a big way. Following that event there was a genuine feeling that there would be further violence at other major motorcycle events in the US between these two clubs. In Sturgis (where I was) they banned patch wearing in all the major bars such as the Full Throttle saloon.

I do not subscribe to the whole sale banning of patch wearing in public but I have also been in a bar where there was the prospect of an impending gunfight!

It’s hard to draw the balance. There is a problem with some patch wearing clubs in the US. How you differentiate these is another matter.

[mrbump]

Suggest you search The Register (theregister.co.uk) for some useful photographer/law/terrorism articles
cheers seen a few in the trade press but not this thanks

[Simon B]

Read it then think about it



One killed in Tulsa drug raid

Authorities shot and killed a man while serving a search warrant at a motorcycle gang hangout Friday morning.

The Tulsa County Sheriffs Office's Special Operations Team entered the building in the 1800 block of North Kingston Place to find a man lying on the ground, Sgt Shannon Clark said.

Three deputies fired at the man as he turned to retrieve a handgun from a nearby bookshelf about 7:05 a.m. The man died at the scene, Clark said.

Members of the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office gather near a motorcycle gang clubhouse where they shot a man during a drug raid Friday morning. The man reached for a gun as deputies entered the building in the 1800 block of North Kingston Place. MATT BARNARD/Tulsa World


While searching the building, deputies found what appears to be a pipe bomb, and the Tulsa Police Department's bomb squad was called to examine the device. TPD's homicide unit is also investigating the shooting.

Clark said other people from the building are being questioned, but no arrests have been made. The building served as a clubhouse for the Rogues motorcycle gang at one time, he said.

Authorities had been investigating activity at the building for some time and were serving the warrant for marijuana and methamphetamine, Clark said.

The bomb squad examined the device and found that it was not explosive. Authorities will now begin the process of searching through the building, Clark said.

There is a surveillance camera bolted above the buildings front door, but it wasn't immediately clear if it was operational.


So he didnt have a gun,
It wasnt a pipe bomb
And even though it used to be a clubhouse, it isnt anymore, but still called a bikers hangout?
But its OK there was a surveillance camera, so they must have been up to no good

[griff2000]

So he didnt have a gun,



??? It says he went to retrieve a hand gun from a book shelf...what do you think he was going to do with it, scratch his armpits?
In a raid situation you dont have time to give the benefit of any doubt. If you are told to stay still (presumably being Merckans', they would all be shouting at the top of their lungs as they went in) and you dont, you are a danger. If you reach for a gun you are a direct threat. Take the fucker out. Quick.

[Borg]

As per the helicopter thread,

[bird]

I found that story about Tulsa fascinating in a dispassionate way, so followed some stories about it through the Tulsa Post.
Here's a city the size of Leicester thats nearly bankrupt with two rival police forces competing for power in their own turf war, and which uses part-time policemen employed to provide armed response units (would you give a special constable a pop gun, let alone an M16?).

In nearby Muskogee, the size of Bridgend, a bit smaller than Macclesfield, theres a gang war going on with teenagers gunning each other down in shopping malls.

And we think our society is in trouble...

[Simon B]

??? It says he went to retrieve a hand gun from a book shelf...what do you think he was going to do with it, scratch his armpits?
In a raid situation you dont have time to give the benefit of any doubt. If you are told to stay still (presumably being Merckans', they would all be shouting at the top of their lungs as they went in) and you dont, you are a danger. If you reach for a gun you are a direct threat. Take the fucker out. Quick.

He didnt have a gun in his hand, he reached for the book shelf
Yeah take him out...........do you work for the filth?
They said they found a suspected pipe bomb and it wasnt, I cant load the pic but they where armed to the teeth, mind you I suppose as they had a cctv camera they got everything they deserved

[griff2000]

No. I dont work for the filth.
But I stand by what I said.
If I was told to 'stand still' by armed cop/soldier/lunatic intruder but reached towards a gun, I would expect to get shot. When you're staring down the wrong end of a weapon its best to do as you're told if you want to live. Common sense really isnt it?

[Simon B]

Here's an interesting piece, even though the courts said no, they are trying to find another way to implement laws in Oz, not only that the bit the police go on about at the end,a brawl,between a few people! what would they do if they had football hooligans?


The Commonwealth and states have moved to back South Australia in its High Court fight over contentious anti-gang laws.

There has been a limbo since a South Australian court ruled part of the laws invalid.

Whatever the outcome of the next week's proceedings, it will affect police efforts to clamp down on bikie-related violence.

South Australia wants the High Court to restore a key part of its legal crackdown on bikies.

Last year's Supreme Court decision to declare part of the laws invalid has thwarted police in trying to act against some motorcycle club members.

Now the Commonwealth and all states and territories, except Tasmania and the ACT, are rallying behind the South Australian Government's battle.

They have lodged documents in the High Court in support of the fight.

Craig Caldicott is a barrister representing the United Motorcycle Council, which is made up of the key motorcycle clubs.

"There are a number of other states who have implemented similar legislation and they simply want to have their say," he said.

"The Commonwealth is saying that you should have the right to appeal from the summary court to a superior court, very much in line with some of the most recent High Court judgment."

Governments have been tough public critics of gangs because of a series of bikie-related attacks in recent years.

But Mr Caldicott thinks a court win for motorcycle clubs would lead to a better crime-fighting approach.

He says legal changes may be forced on other states if the South Australian Government loses in the High Court.

"What it indicates is that parts of the various legislations may be inoperable and they may have to go back to the drawing board," he said.

"A saner, more rational approach to this type of policing and legislation would certainly be welcome."

South Australian Police Association president Mark Carroll is less sympathetic.

"We're talking about serious and organised crime. We're talking about people whose behaviour involves violence, threat of violence, extortion a whole range of heinous crimes," he said.

"We are hopeful that the courts will support these laws and certainly the courage of the government in progressing with these laws and SAPOL [SA Police] should be acknowledged."

South Australian police have dealt with confrontation this week between the Hell's Angels and the New Boys street gang.

Members of both are facing charges over a brawl in Adelaide's Hindley Street in the early hours of Monday.

Police made a further arrest in Adelaide on Wednesday night, a man, 35, from Enfield they say is a New Boys member.

He has been charged with affray.

Police Commissioner Mal Hyde wants a faster legal process to outlaw bikie gangs.

"We'll continue to press for some further changes in the law to help to make it more effective," he said.

"We have made a request of the Attorney-General for a declaration in respect to the Rebels but we have other things in place and I wouldn't like to forecast that at this stage."

The High Court challenge starts next Tuesday.

[Simon B]

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/april182010/biker-rights-tk.php


show down with christian bikers and police


well a bit of one if you watch the video clip


still important point about people's right