MOT - 'nasty business'

[Lone-Wolf]

Wotcha.

Please take a nose at this

MY MOT FAIL TICKET (http://www.moonshiners.org.uk/images/MOT.jpg)

I took the old faithful VW trike in for MOT today – same place that I’ve used for a fair few years now . . only to have it fail, on having no hazard lights and no separate ‘side light switch’ my lights are either on or off - now this trike has been running since 1991 and it’s never failed an MOT.
{The other items mentioned – brake light not working and oil on the brake drum, I ain’t too bothered about – they are a simple fix.}
I’ve done a bit of digging about, and the MOT tester’s manual says that a “Q” reg. vehicle, as far as the MOT is concerned, is treated as 1971

QUOTE
Vehicles having a Q plate registration when presented for MOT are to be treated as follows: For emission purposes only, all these types are to be considered as vehicles first used before 1st August 1975. For all other testing purposes they are to be considered as being first used on 1 st January 1971,or
c. In any other case, the earlier of either
. Its date of first registration, or
.The date six months after it was manufactured.END QUOTE

As for hazard lights

QUOTE
Vehicles first used before 1 April 1986
A hazard warning device is not required by Regulation, but, if one is fitted, it must be tested.
The hazard warning lamp 'tell tale' may be a separate light or the same as the indicator 'tell-tale. However, it must be a flashing lightEND QUOTE


Similar for separately switchable side lights – no mention of it in the tester’s manual

QUOTE
Lamps required by Regulations to be fitted to a vehicle to indicate its presence and width when viewed from the front.
They must show a steady white light to the front, or a yellow light, if incorporated in a headlamp which emits yellow light.
The light must be visible from a reasonable distance.


4. Check that the lamps
a. are complete, in good working order
and clean

b. are secure, not obscured, and face to the front or rear as appropriate. Note: At least 50% of each lamp must be visible from the front or rear as appropriate

c. do not flicker when tapped lightly by hand
END QUOTE

Now I don’t have any argument with the MOT station, or the tester, but I think they are out of order failing the trike on the lights and the hazards . . would someone who knows the regulations for such things please be as kind as to tell me where to find them, and, more importantly, tell me where I can point my MOT tester so that he can be put right . . . . I could alter the trike to comply with his wishes, but how many other trike riders wouldn’t have a clue when it came to electrics and the like ? I’d hate to see someone off the road because of a tester’s ignorance.

Cheers in advance.

[kiffer38]

try this http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual/contents.htm my trike has no side light switch, just lights on, or off, seems like the tester didnt get his oats the night before he tested your trike !

[Lone-Wolf]

Wotcha.
Thanks for the prompt info.

Do a search on 'Hazard lights' on this forum. I thought everyone had been forwarned of this ages ago. Kits to sort it out have been advertised in the magazine for months now.

Just done that :)


Lights. Yes they must show the vehicles presence and width (but the regs don't say 'only when the driver is in attendance). So if you can't operate the parking lights (legally known as position lamps)without the keys in, How do you park legally on the road at night ? (Read the highway code for guidance)


Good point - I'll alter my wiring accordingly.


And before you get too ars*y with the MOT tech, why don't you ask why it wasn't failed on the hazards last year as the regs came in over 2 years ago?

I get on well with my tester - I certainly ain't going to cause him any grief, in fact I'm trying to make his life easier as far as trikes go. Never mind why it wasn't failed two years back - he's passed two trikes in the last month, neither of which is fitted with separate side lights or hazard lights. Just strange that there's no consistency.


Also, the legal requirements, ie what it has to have, not what the tester tests, are listed in section 9.1 of the MOT manual

Ah - now this seems to be the relevant bit.
I take it the 'new' section 9.1 "lighting" supercedes the "Q reg is treated as 1971" as far as trikes / quads go ?

Right - I'll fit hazard lights - both to my "Q" plate trike and my "D" 1987 jobbie, and tell the other folks who are due for MOT shortly what the score is.
Oh dear - I can see me doing quite a bit of extra wiring work over the next few months.

Cheers for the info - thanks to you lot, I'm now a much wiser fellow :D

[triker-taz]

HI I had my trike (which is also on a Q plate) mot'd about 2 weeks ago and although I fitted a side light switch (was advised to by mot man) no lights can be switched on without ignition on and I dont have hazard lights.... :confused:

[MSVA Tech]

Ask MoT tester which VOSA enforcement office he is covered by and the name of the VOSA VE who checks the MoT station. Contact them and ask for clarification. I have checked with MoT policy and the Q mark ages are as in the MoT manual introduction (p8 sect 3) 1 Aug 75 for emissions (not tested on trikes anyway) and 1 Jan 71 for all other testing purposes.

It may be that the tester was only reading section 9 of the manual and not using it in conjuntion with the main sections. Section 9 does not over ride the Q plate dates.

I think he may be on dodgy ground with the switch issue, if the ignition switch puts the lamps on the that should be treated as the switch to be tested.

Cheers

Chris

[Lone-Wolf]

Wotcha.

Ask MoT tester which VOSA enforcement office he is covered by and the name of the VOSA VE who checks the MoT station. Contact them and ask for clarification. I have checked with MoT policy and the Q mark ages are as in the MoT manual introduction (p8 sect 3) 1 Aug 75 for emissions (not tested on trikes anyway) and 1 Jan 71 for all other testing purposes.

That's how I read it - the "Q" plate, in effect, means test it as a 1971 vehicle - and the hazard regs didn't come into force until 1986 ( which means I'd best fit a set to my other trike, which is 1897 "D" reg )


It may be that the tester was only reading section 9 of the manual and not using it in conjuntion with the main sections. Section 9 does not over ride the Q plate dates.

I don't think he had a full manual, because he said there was nothing in there regarding "Q" registration. Either that, or he ain't got a clue.


I think he may be on dodgy ground with the switch issue, if the ignition switch puts the lamps on the that should be treated as the switch to be tested.

The lights are switched independant from the ignition.
The point he was making was that the "sidelights" could not be turned on independantly of the headlights. I have just one switch, so it's all lights on or all lights off - obviously the main and dip on the headlights are switchable.

To keep my tester happy, I'll retro fit hazards, after all, it's only a case of a higher rated flasher unit, a warning light and a switch - I'll modify the lighting circuit to add a switch in the dip/main feed. I will also point him in the direction of an up to date tester's manual ;) I can see the next few weeks becoming rather interesting. :eek:


Cheers

Chris

Thanks for the help - I ain't had this much fun for ages.

[Big Daz]

i have a "Q" plated trike, and never really looked into the hazard switch issue believing it to be compulery on all trikes. so me and my mate have gone ahead and fitted switches to all of our trikes (4 in all).

even though what you say means i dont actually have to have it on mine, it gives me peace of mind that its there. especially as i can take my keys out and leave them going.

[IPC_Jules]

ok this has probably already been stated but whilst on the subject if you dont have indicators do you need hazard lights? my trike is on a really old v5?

Jules

[Lone-Wolf]

Wotcha.

TRIKE MOT UPDATE

Right, having thought about all this hazard light and light switch malarkey, and having taken the sage advice given to me here, I got in touch with the VOSA last week, explained what my tester had told me, and, to put it bluntly, asked who was in the wrong. As I first thought, I was correct. A “Q” plated trike, for MOT purposes, is treated as being registered in 1971 – even if the date of first registration is later than that. The hazard light requirement was introduced for vehicles registered 1986 or later – hence my “Q” plate trike does not need them. The light switch only needs to operate the lights – it does not have to switch the ‘side lights ‘ on separate to the headlights.

The very helpful person on the phone at the VOSA even gave me page number, chapter and verse from the MOT tester’s manual so that I could point it out to the fellow who failed my trike.

The result is
1. My MOT tester now knows that a “Q” reg. is to be treated as a 1971 vehicle.

2. “Q” reg. trikes do not need hazard lights.

3. The light switch only needs to be able to turn ALL the lights on and off.

4. I now have a current MOT – and have not had to alter my trike in any way :D

All this was achieved with much politeness – it was a learning process for both the MOT tester and myself. So thanks once again to the folks on this forum who gave me such valuable advice.

[Lone-Wolf]

That all sounds like clarity we could all learn from and use lone-wolf. Congratulations on being persistant. Would it be possible for you to quote chapter and verse on here? I would certainly help a lot of people out.

Wotcha.

OK - now this could get a tad confusing. It would seem there may be more than one tester's manual in use.
The "Q" reg details are on page 8, section 3 in one manual, but on page 2, section 1.5 in another manual. . . . or so I've been told. ( From what I can see, section 1.5 covers the hazard lights )

The complete tester's manual is available online at
MOT tester's manual can be found here (http://www.motuk.co.uk/welcome.htm)
but be aware that it does not tell you page numbers.
All the relevant information is in there, but, once again, it's a pain trying to make sense of some of it.

For what it's worth, the actual quotes from the manual are as follows.


"Q" reg. - from "How to use this manual" section 3

3. Vehicle 'first used' dates - application of test criteria

A vehicle's 'first used' date is;
a. Its date of manufacture, if the vehicle was originally used . without being registered in GB [e.g., an imported vehicle or ex-HM Forces vehicle), or
b. Vehicles having a Q plate registration when presented for MOT are to be treated as follows: For emission purposes only, all these types are to be considered as vehicles first used before 1st August 1975. For all other testing purposes they are to be considered as being first used on 1 st January 1971,or
c. In any other case, the earlier of either
. Its date of first registration, or
.The date six months after it was manufactured.


Hazard light requirements - section 1.5

Vehicles first used before 1 April 1986
A hazard warning device is not required by Regulation, but, if one is fitted, it must be tested.
The hazard warning lamp 'tell tale' may be a separate light or the same as the indicator 'tell-tale. However, it must be a flashing light.

The light switch - section 1.1 - in the "reason for rejection" column.

2. A switch missing, faulty, insecure, or not able to be operated from the normal driving position.

Nothing about two position switches.
The only mention of light switches being independent of the ignition switch is in the case of dim-dip headlight systems.

Section 1.1 - "obigatory front position lamps"


On vehicles fitted with dim-dip headlamp systems, the front position lamps must be checked for operation with the ignition switched off. This may involve the operation of a separate switch.

That's the information that I used to "educate and inform" my local tester. Seems this new computerised MOT system is causing all manner of grief - people who have been testing for years are now finding things confusing, to say the least.

[John Hopkins]

I have a bike, but because I am an old fart i also have a mondeo and today it had to go in for an MOT. It failed because it didn't have water in the windscreen washer container, If there is no water you can't test the washer to see if it works. Luckily common sense prevailed and the chap at the garage filled it for me and then passed the vehicle. But supposing he had been a jobsworth!! John

[MSVA Tech]

LW - glad to hear the VOSA person you spoke too was helpful, got to say they are usually very good and know when to pass an enquiry on to a tech expert.

JH - fair point but what if you'd followed a tractor and then hit a bike because "Sorry mate I didn't see you"

"devils advocate mode off" :)

[blackhack]

I once took a chop for an MOT (years ago when I knew nothing much about MOT's) and the tester failed it for not having a speedometer.I told him I had one but was having trouble finding a cable to fit it.
he winked at me and said "It has to be fitted, but it dosnt have to work"

So I just bolted on a mini speedo I had lying in the garage and took it back for a re-test...passed OK

There's a lot of sensible testers out there, you just have to find them.....:)

[Tom-madbiker]

ok this has probably already been stated but whilst on the subject if you dont have indicators do you need hazard lights? my trike is on a really old v5?

Jules

You sit on it and wave your arms up and down :D

[Bassman]

I have a bike, but because I am an old fart i also have a mondeo and today it had to go in for an MOT. It failed because it didn't have water in the windscreen washer container, If there is no water you can't test the washer to see if it works. Luckily common sense prevailed and the chap at the garage filled it for me and then passed the vehicle. But supposing he had been a jobsworth!! John

No offence mate.. but surely its sensible to check stuff works before you take the vehicle for its MOT?.. E.g. Lights, horn, flashers (if needed) Brake lights, brakes ok .washers etc.etc. otherwise its a waste of your time...

[John Hopkins]

No offence mate.. but surely its sensible to check stuff works before you take the vehicle for its MOT?.. E.g. Lights, horn, flashers (if needed) Brake lights, brakes ok .washers etc.etc. otherwise its a waste of your time...

None taken and yes it's sensible, so is it to check all of these things before each journey, but my car only gets driven once a year to the garage for it's MOT. and Like most other people 1 I thought it had water in. and 2 I'm not familiar enough with what they test and it never occurred to me that water in the windscreen washers was one of them And 3. I didn't bother to check anything because if it failed I would have it fixed...Still it's done now for another year, and next year I'll check the water before I take it in. John.