tech bol***ks

[Sankey]

Hello
I am trying to build my first trike. i am using a GXS 1100 G (SHAFTY) and i have a few questions that i could do with being answered. Firstly, what axel do i use to keep the same ratio if i use 17" wheels. (wheels not aquired yet).
Secondly, what the hell are rose joints, and third, i have seen in the past that handbrakes with a type of washing machine tap have been used. i.e. put your foot on the rear brake and turn the knob and the pressure is held between the knob and rear cylinders. can this still be used as cables look ****e. any input would be a great help.

cheers

Sank :confused:

[dracken1]

hi.
i can work out the ratio/axle, you will need. i would suggest that the final ratio be slightly lower than the bike as you have 2 wheels to turn.

but firstly i need to know what the final drive ratio is of the original bike. plus the diameter of the standard rear wheel inc tyre.
plus will it be rigid or using an irs setup. :)

[odie]

The gearing is easy to sort out, as for your hand brake the construction and use regs say that you CANNOT have a hydaulic hand brake as you could lose pressure , so your washing machine idea is a no no (yes we have all seen it done) You must use a cable operated, only has to lock 1 wheel, front or back makes no odds.
Hope this helps, and i am sure if i have got some-thing wrong some-one will tell you.

[trykerdon]

it will depend on what type of rear end you are going to construct if you go down the independant rear suspension route like the red one in this months mag then the total tire diameter can be 64cm using a standerd ford granada axle. If on the other hand you chose the reliant rear end with a b prefix to the axle number you can use bmw 13 in rims on 60 profile tyres
The ford cortina /escort rear you can use 13 or 17 in rims depending on what top speed you wish to achieve i tend to tell people to go with bigger tyres to start with thenif the bikes power can pull it easily then all well and good, if it is too high geared you can go down in size to alter the gearing without having to adjust your mudguards etc
Tonly way to do your hand brake is with cables opperating on both rear wheels it also has to have a easy adjustment to both cables or one looped cable to take up any wear in the rear brakes or of cable stretch .At most of the mot stations this will apply and if it dont yet it will when the msva pass down there latest directives to all stations I sorry if this sounds like im a know all twat but i do keep up with the very latest regs hpoe this helps RIDE SAFE

[Sankey]

cheers for that

i have been told that the handbrake does have to be cable type, however it only needs to be on one wheel, front or back. the axle will be irs type and i was thinking of a ford sierra. one thing that confusses me is that they say you cant use a hydrulic setup for a handbrake when cars do! Hilman Himp and more moden citroen's have them on front wheels?????

regards
sank

[trykerdon]

I do build trikes and bikes for a living and i also have been through the msva tests there is no matter of opinion when it is time to take your trike for this test you will have to comply but whos fact you choose is up to you there are cars around that have hydaulic hand brakes but the fluid comes from the same res as the other braking system so if you have a leak in any part of oyur braking system the hand brake wont work so you end up in an emergency brakeless .When the rules for trikes were made for the msva it was decided to have the hand brake as a parking brake and also an emergency brake it all adds up to your safety the msva executives are bikers they are not suited arseholes they listened to what we had to say at the msva meetings .As for the ford type you are going to use the sierra and the granada are the best i use granada all the time because it comes as standerd with disc brakes and a five stud hub which you can get wider wheels than a four stud and they often work out cheaper im sorry if my views are not popular but nor is travelling 60 miles to an msva test only to fail to do it all again

[guydewdney]

<cat - pigeons>

i thought you needed 2 independent braking systems -

a car (or a truck for that matter) has a foot brake and a hand brake.

a bike has a front and back brake.

a trike has a front brake, back brake and an hand brake? makes no sense to me...

[Alik Windrush]

I'm fairly pissed so bear with me:-
A handbrake for the MSVA regs has to work on two wheels and must be balanced. i.e. one cable running through a roller to both wheels or a cable via a balance bar to both wheels. A handbrake is only a parking brake where a dual circuit brake system is fitted. i.e. a a master cylinder with two pistons of seperate front and rear brakes. There is a huge operating efficiency difference between a parking brake (25%) and an emergency brake.
A handbrake must be mechanical in operation.
A handbrake is only an emergency brake where single a circuit braking system is fitted i.e. one lever/pedal operating on all three wheels off one pipe.
I'll have another beer now then...!

[titusni]

I'm fairly pissed so bear with me:-
A handbrake for the MSVA regs has to work on two wheels

Strange - the MSVA guys here passed my trike through in Jan with the handbrake only operating on the near-side rear wheel.

[100%Pat]

This kind of bollocks really pisses me off!! How can we ever get a regulation sorted when even their own dept cant get their house in order!!!
This really does seem prevelent all over the country, different places are 'interpreting' the rules in their own way and its damn WRONG!

[titusni]

This kind of bollocks really pisses me off!! How can we ever get a regulation sorted when even their own dept cant get their house in order!!!
This really does seem prevelent all over the country, different places are 'interpreting' the rules in their own way and its damn WRONG!

Well my V-Max trike together with another hardtail Yam trike were the first 2 trikes the testing agency here in Northern Ireland had even done (there's only 1 centre doing MSVA over here & its in Belfast). They spent the whole day examining both trikes (7+ hours!) and although I wasn't there (trike builder took them) they apparently spent a fair bit of time on the phone to England to check bits and bobs in the regs they weren't sure about.

I don't have a copy of the MSVA handbook myself but if it clearly stated that a trike needed a parking brake to operate on more than 1 wheel then I'd have expected them to have red flagged that at the time - they were apparently being very thorough/anal.

Can someone who's got a copy of the VOSA MSVA test manual tell us exactly what it says about parking brakes for a trike?

[Alik Windrush]

I've just checked my MSVA inspection manual and I suspect that the problem lies with the fact that the test is designed for both solo's and trikes.
The actual wording is "Any braking system will be considered to have met the performance requirements if more than half the wheels lock."

Having spoken to the guy's who wrote tha manual I know that they intended that the handbrake should be balanced and operate two wheels.

However; anyone reading the wording might interpret the statement as half the wheels on one circuit. Which on a service brake (i.e. handbrake) circuit could indeed mean only one.

What is even scarier is that I have just converted a bike into a trike and by only filling in the changes section on the log book, I've recieved a new log book retaining the original number plate and stating that it is a tricycle...!
No forms, MSVA, MoT or registration fee required...

[100%Pat]

Dont you find this horrifiying?? This was all meant to make sure this kind if thing DIDNT happen??? The situation is getting much worse, I'm hearing this stuff every week now different versions, different areas, and its making a mockery of the whole system!! Can you not talk to your guy and get something done?

[dracken1]

i bought a 900 diversion off a guy.i did some work on it and sold it to a guy in bristol. i then had a phone call off the previous owner as a v5 had just arrived in his name,with me as the previous owner.

the new owner i assume must now have sold it as a v5 arrived this morning for said diversion, with me as the new keeper, with the guy i sold it to as the previous keeper.

who the hell is processing these v5's?? new delhi by any chance..................

[Sankey]

i,m sorry to create such a fuss but it does sound a load of bollocks to me. we should have a list of test centres that pass handbrakes on one side and those that dont, then we can chose which one we go to. MY FIRST TRIKE, FIRST PROJECT AND ALREADY HIT A RUBBER WALL! Still i reckon if you go the whole hog and put the handbrake on 2 wheels then it should pass and as long as that happens its all smiles :) :) :)

[titusni]

What is even scarier is that I have just converted a bike into a trike and by only filling in the changes section on the log book, I've recieved a new log book retaining the original number plate and stating that it is a tricycle...!
No forms, MSVA, MoT or registration fee required...

After passing MSVA my trike retained its original numberplate.

[Alik Windrush]

A mate of mine built a ford 'V'6 trike. He made the chassis and forks himself and used only the engine, from the donor vehicle. After MSVA it kept the car (donor vehicle) registration.

[here's_Mike.R]

I saw a lovely green trike at this year's Pissed Indian Rally - feature it quick - and it had a very simple hand brake arrangement. A bracket attached in the dif area carrying a double bellcrank, about 3 inches across from memory. Attached to the bellcrank with clevis pins was a rod to each back brake assembly (drums). Sticking out rearwards was a simple lever - about 6 inches long - to operate the handbrake pull sideways and lock with a pin which was part of the device. All chromed up looked trick as f*ck. You'd have to get off and walk round the back to operate it though. How does that fit in with the MSVA, FBI, or whatever?

[Alik Windrush]

For a time VOSA was issuing an MSVA newsletter to help the scheme settle in.

In issue 2 dated 9th may 2003 it sez (and I quote):-

A new definition of 'MOTORCYCLE DERIVED' has been created to address the trike brake and front light issues. A 'MOTORCYCLE DERIVED' tricycle is a three wheeled vehicle designed and built with a single front wheel and motorcycle type steering and suspension.
A motorcycle derived vehicle is exempted from fitting front position lamps at the front. i.e. can be fitted on the rear mudwings.
The width is increased to 1700 mm before two dipped beam headlamps are required;
Front direction indicators no longer have to be fitted within 400 mm from the extreme outer edge and the minimum distance apart is reduced to 240 mm.
Motorcycle derived vehicles can have either a combined braking system or separate front and rear systems."

end quote

[titusni]

So as I have a trike that was passed MSVA with the handbrake operating only on one rear wheel am I correct in assuming I'll have no MOT problems about this in the future? i.e. its a MSVA-time thing to check, not a MOT-time thing.

[BikerGran]

What is even scarier is that I have just converted a bike into a trike and by only filling in the changes section on the log book, I've recieved a new log book retaining the original number plate and stating that it is a tricycle...!
No forms, MSVA, MoT or registration fee required...

I understood that this was correct - if the bike frame is not modified, and it uses the original front end and engine, it doesn't need MSVA. I had a look at the regs on the DVLA website cos I was a bit doubtful and this appeared to be right.Our local police seem to be of that opinion also, and my insurance co are quite happy with it - they did check with me that the frame was not modified.

[Alik Windrush]

So as I have a trike that was passed MSVA with the handbrake operating only on one rear wheel am I correct in assuming I'll have no MOT problems about this in the future? i.e. its a MSVA-time thing to check, not a MOT-time thing.

See there you go making assumptions. The MSVA is not an MoT. It only examines design and construction; which is why you could pass the MSVA with bald tyres (so long as thay carried the correct speed rating) and no bearings in anything..!

[Alik Windrush]

I saw a lovely green trike at this year's Pissed Indian Rally - feature it quick - and it had a very simple hand brake arrangement. A bracket attached in the dif area carrying a double bellcrank, about 3 inches across from memory. Attached to the bellcrank with clevis pins was a rod to each back brake assembly (drums). Sticking out rearwards was a simple lever - about 6 inches long - to operate the handbrake pull sideways and lock with a pin which was part of the device. All chromed up looked trick as f*ck. You'd have to get off and walk round the back to operate it though. How does that fit in with the MSVA, FBI, or whatever?


Lovely as it seems; the handbrake must be in a position to be operated from the riding position. Mind you that's MSVA regs.........

[titusni]

See there you go making assumptions. The MSVA is not an MoT. It only examines design and construction; which is why you could pass the MSVA with bald tyres (so long as thay carried the correct speed rating) and no bearings in anything..!

Ok.............so are you saying my trike should/will fail MOT with handbrake operating on only one wheel then?

[Alik Windrush]

I'm afraid it depends on the MoT testers interpretaion.

My advice is generally "do what the tester asks you to do". But not until he asks you.

Unless he is completely wrong (like the definition of 'Bike derived' trikes) it's best not to piss him off unless you know somewhere else to get a test done.

[titusni]

I'm afraid it depends on the MoT testers interpretaion.

My advice is generally "do what the tester asks you to do". But not until he asks you.

Unless he is completely wrong (like the definition of 'Bike derived' trikes) it's best not to piss him off unless you know somewhere else to get a test done.

Well the bloomin thing went through and passed an MOT 1 month *before* it had its MSVA (cuz the only test centre allowed to do MSVA dragged its heels for ages).

So its already passed 1 MOT and the MSVA as it is.

When its MOT is due at end of December the nearest MOT testing centre to me is actually the place that did the MSVA (but *not* the original MOT as trike builder used a place near to him)..........so if I took it there for MOT and they failed it well there'd be a good chance it would be one of the guys who has actually passed it like that for its MSVA....doh!

Then again I might not want take it to the MSVA/MOT test centre - as they originally failed the trike on the MSVA noise test 1st time round and might decide to fail it for noise during MOT :-(

I know during MSVA they use noise meters but the MOT regs don't make any mention of that - noise level seems a subjective test - so would they be "allowed" to dig out their noise meters during MOT to prove that it may be too loud?

This whole thing seems a right mess...